New (old) locos for MMA?

A somewhat related question:
Wisconsin Central was a big EMD road - I don't think they had anything else. Why does MMA only buy GE's? Aren't older GE's kinda crummy compared to older EMD's? This sounds like a decision Mr. Burkhardt made, and I'm curiuos if anybody knows why.

"A somewhat related question:
Wisconsin Central was a big EMD road - I don't think they had anything else. Why does MMA only buy GE's? Aren't older GE's kinda crummy compared to older EMD's? This sounds like a decision Mr. Burkhardt made, and I'm curiuos if anybody knows why."

A little birdie told me the reason: "cheap! ....CHEAP!"

Not surprising though given the eroded traffic base they are dealing with. Still sad though that when they bought the railroad the old Iron Roads/BAR power didn't come along with it, most of them were probably in better shape than most of the GEs. Plus, with Burkhardt's apparent lack of concern with developing and presenting any kind of "image" for MMA, at least the unrepainted power would've looked better in the meantime...

Iron Roads had a pile of crappy power. They needed over 60 units to move the same traffic that MMA moves with less than 35 units.

The GE's are less expensive for several reasons, including EPA requirements. For a Class 1 to meet EPA regulations, which are applicable when the unit is rebuilt, the GE power would require conversion to electronic fuel injection. The return on such an investment is not justifiable.

Additionally, GE power provides better low end tractive effort on a per unit basis as compared to EMD power. This comes in handy between Montreal and Maine. And compared to an EMD (SD40-2 Vs. C30-7), the GE power has better fuel economy.

As for the image, MMA recently demoted the head of the mechanical department. It was his responsibility to paint locomotives. Was this a part of why he was demoted?

"They needed over 60 units to move the same traffic that MMA moves with less than 35 units. "

This is a multi-facted statement and I'm not sure it's 100% correct.

First- one would expect, when using 3000-HP 6-motor units instead of 2000-hp 4-motor units in road service, or 3900-hp 4-motor units instead of 1750-hp units in local service, that some reduction in units would be realized. This seems to be the case, witness usually 3 C30s instead of 4 Geeps on the Montreal trains, and single-units on some of the locals in Maine formerly run with pairs of GP7s/9s.

Second- I don't have any hard numbers to go by, but it sure seems like with the various mill issues and the general state of the ecomony that MMA is handling less traffic than Iron Road generally was. For instance, for most of the IR years, there were 2 pairs of trains between ST. Luc and MAine more or less daily, now it's just one pair of trains. Unless the trains today are normally 150-car whoppers, which I don't think they are, there is no way MMA is handling as much traffic to/from Montreal as IR was 10 years ago. Traffic in other places has dwindled too (for instance, the Searsport Branch used to support a halfway-decent sized train- maybe 20-25 cars or so- 5-6 days a week, last I heard it was running with a single until 3 times a week).

Your observations on the pros of older (i.e., pre -8) GE power are pretty much bang-on, but the pros of course are tempered by their notorious maintenance records. Smaller roads can get these at bargain prices (compared with comparable EMD units) because no one else (South America, and I believe a few other such places, not withstanding) wants them. And with as cheap as they can get complete untis, they can (and usually do) pick up a few extras to provide the needed parts to throw at them.

Well the MMA ran 2 pairs of trains if you count the pig trains, but due to border issues I believe, they are now gone.

oibu wrote:Second- I don't have any hard numbers to go by, but it sure seems like with the various mill issues and the general state of the ecomony that MMA is handling less traffic than Iron Road generally was. For instance, for most of the IR years, there were 2 pairs of trains between ST. Luc and MAine more or less daily, now it's just one pair of trains. Unless the trains today are normally 150-car whoppers, which I don't think they are, there is no way MMA is handling as much traffic to/from Montreal as IR was 10 years ago. Traffic in other places has dwindled too (for instance, the Searsport Branch used to support a halfway-decent sized train- maybe 20-25 cars or so- 5-6 days a week, last I heard it was running with a single until 3 times a week).

The trains acrross the Moosehead whenever I have seen them have always exceeded 90 cars, usually more around 110-120. The Searsport branch is still running 5 days a week, although traffic for the most part is down. MMA is regularly operating 100 car trains from the north (100-101) and the NMJ turn is still running at +/- 30 cars despite the loss of the chip traffic to Lagrange with the closing of the GP mill last year. MMA is not handling as much traffic as Iron Roads did 10 years ago, but they are handling a significant amount more than Iron Roads did 5 years ago.

Units are in route

oibu wrote:MMA is regularly operating 100 car trains from the north (100-101) and the NMJ turn is still running at +/- 30 cars despite the loss of the chip traffic to Lagrange with the closing of the GP mill last year.

What the heck are they handling from the North that has them running that many cars? Is there really that much Lumber, Paper and Log/Chip traffic left? I know they had long trains way back in the day when they were supplying alot of logs and chips to the Paper mills (i.e. Old Town, Jay, etc) on the MEC, but thought that was ancient history. That is very surprising to say the least..

"The Searsport branch is still running 5 days a week, although traffic for the most part is down. MMA is regularly operating 100 car trains from the north (100-101) and the NMJ turn is still running at +/- 30 cars despite the loss of the chip traffic to Lagrange with the closing of the GP mill last year."

I had also heard that the Northern Maine Junction job did all work on the South end, going to Searsport three days a week and a turn to Millinocket twice a week and also doing all yard work. Is this not true? How many crews are they calling on a weekly basis out of NMJ?

riffian wrote:I had also heard that the Northern Maine Junction job did all work on the South end, going to Searsport three days a week and a turn to Millinocket twice a week and also doing all yard work. Is this not true? How many crews are they calling on a weekly basis out of NMJ?

There are three crews operating out of NMJ. 202/203 (turn to Millinocket) runs 5 days a week with a one man crew, leaving NMJ between 0900 and 1000. Also operating during the day is a one-man switch crew, using the VB. Evenings, the Searsport crew works to Searsport and back. They go on duty a few hours after 203 returns. The Searsport branch has lost a fair amount of traffic in the past few months. The lumber shipments through Searsport failed, wood pulp traffic is way down, and oil traffic is down too.

roberttosh wrote:What the heck are they handling from the North that has them running that many cars? Is there really that much Lumber, Paper and Log/Chip traffic left? I know they had long trains way back in the day when they were supplying alot of logs and chips to the Paper mills (i.e. Old Town, Jay, etc) on the MEC, but thought that was ancient history. That is very surprising to say the least..

I'm not 100% of just exactly what they are handling up north (I don't get up that way much). I am planning on some railfanning in that direction tomorrow (7/25), and will get back to the group on this.

"oibu wrote:
MMA is regularly operating 100 car trains from the north (100-101) and the NMJ turn is still running at +/- 30 cars despite the loss of the chip traffic to Lagrange with the closing of the GP mill last year. "


"What the heck are they handling from the North that has them running that many cars? Is there really that much Lumber, Paper and Log/Chip traffic left? I know they had long trains way back in the day when they were supplying alot of logs and chips to the Paper mills (i.e. Old Town, Jay, etc) on the MEC, but thought that was ancient history. That is very surprising to say the least.."

Actually, I didn't write that.

But in any event, when you add up the output of the sveral lumber mills and log loadouts and chip loaders on the Ahsland Branch, Fraser at Madawaska, the various small-medium shippers on the branches out of Squa Pan, and a few other random cars here and there, and it seems plausible that by the time Millinocket is reached they could have 100 cars collected up pretty regularly. I don't know exactly, but even just figuring 20-30 chip loads, 10 or so log loads, 10-15 lumber loads, 15 various cars picked up at Squa Pan, and 10 cars from Fraser (bearing in mind a lot- most?- of the Fraser-related traffic comes in and out via INR Jct.), that's a 65-85 car train. Those numbers as I said are just rough estimates, based on the shippers I know of and the cars/activity I've seen, some may be a little high or a little low, and of course it varies day to day.... but still, you get the picture.

"oibu wrote:
MMA is regularly operating 100 car trains from the north (100-101) and the NMJ turn is still running at +/- 30 cars despite the loss of the chip traffic to Lagrange with the closing of the GP mill last year. "


"What the heck are they handling from the North that has them running that many cars? Is there really that much Lumber, Paper and Log/Chip traffic left? I know they had long trains way back in the day when they were supplying alot of logs and chips to the Paper mills (i.e. Old Town, Jay, etc) on the MEC, but thought that was ancient history. That is very surprising to say the least.."

Actually, I didn't write that.

But in any event, when you add up the output of the sveral lumber mills and log loadouts and chip loaders on the Ahsland Branch, Fraser at Madawaska, the various small-medium shippers on the branches out of Squa Pan, and a few other random cars here and there, and it seems plausible that by the time Millinocket is reached they could have 100 cars collected up pretty regularly. I don't know exactly, but even just figuring 20-30 chip loads, 10 or so log loads, 10-15 lumber loads, 15 various cars picked up at Squa Pan, and 10 cars from Fraser (bearing in mind a lot- most?- of the Fraser-related traffic comes in and out via INR Jct.), that's a 65-85 car train. Those numbers as I said are just rough estimates, based on the shippers I know of and the cars/activity I've seen, some may be a little high or a little low, and of course it varies day to day.... but still, you get the picture.

New units reported on the MMA in Canada, heading east to Farnham. Would suggest that they will be at Derby by Monday morning.

To posit a thought about the image / paint of MMA units - I read in Trains Mag a few years back that a good new class I paint job for a AC4400 costs about $25,000. That likely means a bush league paint job on a crummy old GE is likely $10,000. If the railroad is short of traffic (revenue) and the units are junkers that are living on borrowed time, to be replaced by more junkers, I can understand why the railroad only wants to paint a few locomotives. Payroll, infrastructure, and marketing are better uses of $350,000 than pretty colors, much as we railfans hate to admit it.