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Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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 #1583120  by flexliner
 
Saw article in WSJ sorry couldn’t get the link - regarding new maps for subway and SBS.
Anyone else hear of this?


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 #1583131  by Allan
 
They are testing out newer versions of the subway map including a return to the Vignelli style map from the 1970's. Also new style of neighborhood map.

They have placed copies of the test maps in Grand Central (the ones I saw are near the shuttle turnstiles), Times Square, and a couple of other stations.


Another article: https://gizmodo.com/new-subway-map-just ... 1847865349

This is the link to the MTA project:
https://new.mta.info/projects/subway-ma ... tion-pilot


Personally, I think it is a waste of money. I always thought the Vignelli version was too 'robotic' with everything being basically straight lines.. The current subway map is fine as far as I am concerned.

As it stands the paper map will soon (in X number of years) will go the way of the printed timetables (remember those?) - all digital. Even in the newer subway cars (possibly starting with the R211) the map will be electronic and on a screen in the car.
 #1583140  by STrRedWolf
 
Allan wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:59 pm They are testing out newer versions of the subway map including a return to the Vignelli style map from the 1970's. Also new style of neighborhood map.

They have placed copies of the test maps in Grand Central (the ones I saw are near the shuttle turnstiles), Times Square, and a couple of other stations.


Another article: https://gizmodo.com/new-subway-map-just ... 1847865349

This is the link to the MTA project:
https://new.mta.info/projects/subway-ma ... tion-pilot


Personally, I think it is a waste of money. I always thought the Vignelli version was too 'robotic' with everything being basically straight lines.. The current subway map is fine as far as I am concerned.

As it stands the paper map will soon (in X number of years) will go the way of the printed timetables (remember those?) - all digital. Even in the newer subway cars (possibly starting with the R211) the map will be electronic and on a screen in the car.
Saw the Gizmodo article... which referenced the WSJ article... which didn't do the thing that was just done above.

LINK PEOPLE TO THE !)@#*()!@#*( MAPS!

So I took a look. Mind you, I'm an outsider who's visited NYC twice in his life... and they mostly suck.
  • The colors are just that much unsaturated that the blue looks more teal/cyan than it has any right to be. It's like they took the sample colors and left them out in the sun for too long. Amazing that they found an empty area to do that.
  • The new subway map is garbage. Not representative of the entire geography. I can't make heads or tails out of all the detail they have for what it supposed to do.
  • The geographic map is better but the colors, font choice, line layout... it looks way off.
  • The bus map needs work. Nice that it focuses on buses but stops are not marked off. That would be very helpful.
  • The walkability map is the best of the bunch, and could spawn a "local area" map that's zoomed in a 5 min walking radius of an area with a "YOU ARE HERE" in the actual subway areas depicted.
I left feedback. It can be better.
 #1583145  by Allan
 
"The new subway map is garbage. Not representative of the entire geography. I can't make heads or tails out of all the detail they have for what it supposed to do."


The idea is to basically show the subway routes as North, South, East, West in relation to Manhattan (and the other boros but mainly Manhattan). The current map does a good job of that. The proposed new map (based on the Vignelli map of 1974-1979) sort of distorts the visual relationship of the directions. That is why the original Vignelli map only lasted 5 years and the layout of the current one 42 years (so far)


"The bus map needs work. Nice that it focuses on buses but stops are not marked off. That would be very helpful."

Nice idea but if they were to include where the bus stops were you'd need a map almost 2 times (if not larger) the size of the current one. Some bus stops are 2-3 blocks apart, others might be a bit further apart.

The Manhattan bus map is not too bad with most routes in mid town and lower Manhattan defined as North/South, East/West but you'd still need more space to show bus stops. Take a look at the bus maps for the other boros (Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island - there is barely enough room to make sense of all the routes that run in each boro (and some routes run into other boros), let alone show bus stops.

Perhaps they could isolate each bus route, in addition to the overall map and give the cross streets where the bus stops are. But there are SO MANY bus routes it could take forever to create and maintain.
 #1583169  by andrewjw
 
The point of a subway diagram is not to show you geography. It is to show you how to navigate *within* the system. Compare London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo Metro, etc...

Trying to pack both geography and service patterns into one map just does a shoddy job of communicating either. How many tourists have boarded the local yellow line going to 72 St because it has a black dot? How many have seen the crosstown distances in Midtown or FiDi and thought, "that's too long of a walk for me"?
 #1583175  by Allan
 
andrewjw wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:06 pm The point of a subway diagram is not to show you geography. It is to show you how to navigate *within* the system. Compare London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo Metro, etc...

Trying to pack both geography and service patterns into one map just does a shoddy job of communicating either. How many tourists have boarded the local yellow line going to 72 St because it has a black dot? How many have seen the crosstown distances in Midtown or FiDi and thought, "that's too long of a walk for me"?
Excellent points.

Just one comment - we don't say "local yellow line" we say the train line identifier, in your example it would be the Q.
 #1583178  by kitchin
 
We need both maps types of maps. I think MTA could swing that. Vignelli style maps are good for connections, the other for places and distances.

If I'm on the train and have forgotten the connections, I want Vignelli. If I'm planning ahead, I might want geographic. I find just following online directions disorienting.
 #1583180  by STrRedWolf
 
kitchin wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:00 am We need both maps types of maps. I think MTA could swing that. Vignelli style maps are good for connections, the other for places and distances.

If I'm on the train and have forgotten the connections, I want Vignelli. If I'm planning ahead, I might want geographic. I find just following online directions disorienting.
I can't see how I'd get into the "forgot my connection and need to get back" mindset. I'm mostly planning a few steps ahead, and even if I'm in that mindset, geographic will still have that connection information.

Now, there is something missing: Notable landmark info on the overall maps (it's on the more local maps). Where are major or recognizable places, such as WTC Memorial, the Transit Museum, 30 Rock, the Philharmonic, FDNY Ladder 8? I mean, what if you need to transfer from the 1 to the A but you got too much time on your hands? Who ya' going to call? :grinning:
 #1583181  by Allan
 
kitchin wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:00 am We need both maps types of maps. I think MTA could swing that. Vignelli style maps are good for connections, the other for places and distances.

If I'm on the train and have forgotten the connections, I want Vignelli. If I'm planning ahead, I might want geographic. I find just following online directions disorienting.
I disagree.

For visitors who ride the subway and may not be familiar with the system (and that is a lot of people), one map is confusing enough but to have a 2nd map - no way. A visitor who has ridden the NYC Subway enough gnenrally has no problem with or without a map.

Forget the connections? Unless you are experiencing 'brain drain on the train' I find that difficult to believe. Maybe missing a connection because you fell asleep, were reading something or just not paying attention - that I could see.


I find online directions misleading. On a few occasions where I was stopped by a visitor taking the subway (I seem to have that kind of face that says : "he knows his way around" ) and they show me what their smart phone has for directions, I usually say - skip those directions and then give them more explicit directions including what car to board or what staircase to use at their destination (or other info like that).
Online directions are only as good as the person who programmed in the information (and they may not always be that knowledgeable about using the subway.

BTW - using the online subway map can be confusing because you can only see a small portion at at time. At least with the paper version (either in the passenger version or the big wall map or the one in a subway car) at least you can see the overall picture.
 #1583196  by MACTRAXX
 
Allan: Good comments about the new NYCT map. My personal preference is the geographically correct map.
The Vignelli map is a good graphic rendering remembering all the colors used on the 1970s versions.

The five Borough bus maps have been gradually improved over the decades since the first issues in the 1970s.
The map of Manhattan in particular is a favorite of mine that can be a decent street and transit guide.

Are maps (and any printed schedules) still available at 3 Stone Street in Downtown Manhattan anymore?
At one time a source of the five Borough bus maps used to be at the Jamaica Station AirTrain terminal.
They were placed with some tourist information adjacent to the MVM machines...At some point the racks
and tourist video information were removed...I believe in 2018.

Being able to download a transit map is a good option - but I do prefer a physical printed copy...MACTRAXX
 #1583200  by Allan
 
"Are maps (and any printed schedules) still available at 3 Stone Street in Downtown Manhattan anymore?"

Not like they used to be. Gone are the carousels that used to be loaded with maps etc.

Nowadays you ask the guard at the door to get one for you. This is because, due to covid, people need to make an appointment to get into the Customer service area at 3 Stone to apply for a reduced fare MetroCard or get a replacement etc.

The MTA stopped printing schedules for the subway lines (for customer use) quite a number of years ago. Now it is all online. Eventually the paper map will be online only. BTW - the last paper subway map that I am aware of was issued in February 2020. The ones in the subway cars are more recent for 2021 and reflect the recent changes involving the 42 St Shuttle project and the transfer to the B,D,F and M. The online (and downloadable) version is kept current to the present month.
 #1584659  by andrewjw
 
Allan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:07 am
andrewjw wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:06 pm The point of a subway diagram is not to show you geography. It is to show you how to navigate *within* the system. Compare London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo Metro, etc...

Trying to pack both geography and service patterns into one map just does a shoddy job of communicating either. How many tourists have boarded the local yellow line going to 72 St because it has a black dot? How many have seen the crosstown distances in Midtown or FiDi and thought, "that's too long of a walk for me"?
Excellent points.

Just one comment - we don't say "local yellow line" we say the train line identifier, in your example it would be the Q.
Allan - to clarify, *I* would know there is no train from local stations on Broadway to 72nd - I'm pointing out that a tourist would just see black dot at 72nd - black dot at 23rd where they entered - great, I'll take the local yellow train. No thought to what service is really running, just thinking of the "local yellow line".