New Atlanta Station

When extensive commuter rail and intercity service (especially the proposed Charlotte-Atlanta service, or maybe even the Atlanta-Dallas service eventually) comes to town, a large intercity terminal is required to handle that large amount of service, in addition to Amtrak. I feel that based on the space available, the former Union/Central Station would be an ideal place to build this major terminal for the South's largest growing city.

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 7:41 pm When extensive commuter rail and intercity service (especially the proposed Charlotte-Atlanta service, or maybe even the Atlanta-Dallas service eventually) comes to town, a large intercity terminal is required to handle that large amount of service, in addition to Amtrak. I feel that based on the space available, the former Union/Central Station would be an ideal place to build this major terminal for the South's largest growing city.

I agree.

However, we don’t have that luxury right now. Maybe Virgin Brightline could achieve that, or maybe the Feds & state under different administrations, but right now the Gulch is closed to passenger terminals.

Yeah, perfect is the enemy of the good. Don't build a station for what MIGHT happen in 20 years, but build for what's possible in the next 5-10.

BTW The two main passenger station in Atlanta were Union station L& N, NC & SL, ACL, GaRR. Terminal station = SOU RR, SAL, C of Ga, A & WP. Both station 1/4 mile apart in the gulch.

Suburban stations were Emory University, Tucker = SAL, Marietta =,NC &SL and L & N, Peachtree station, Oglethorpe University, Chamblee, Doraville, Norcross, and Austell = SOU RR, Decatur, Stone Mountain = GaRR, East Point, Hapeville, Forest Park = CofGa, East point (same) and college Park = A & WP. There were others.

Is the site actually closed off? Has CIM (?) started development or closed on the site?

Now, imagine if FORTRESS! could get its hands on the development rights. Now you're talking Brightline, TOD.

A new or expanded station is definitely going to be needed if Atlanta's potential is to be realized, as well as a crew/maintenance/layover facility, but I think we're forgetting something VERY important. With Hartsfield-Jackson being such an important airport, I would argue that any service terminating in Atlanta that can be should be thru run to the airport and ultimately terminate there. That being said, an expanded downtown (or wherever in Atlanta it is decided) station should still be done as the volume of passengers will likely be greatest there, but the layover facility should be by the airport at the end of the route.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 8:25 am Is the site actually closed off? Has CIM (?) started development or closed on the site?

Now, imagine if FORTRESS! could get its hands on the development rights. Now you're talking Brightline, TOD.

Unfortunately Fortress/Brightline passed on an opportunity to submit an RFQ for a huge TOD project at Charlotte Gateway a few months ago. It was an opportunity to redevelop approximately 8 full blocks in downtown Charlotte along with the station itself. While I suspect it was because they were focused on the capital raise for Las Vegas -- Victorville, it signaled to me that they were passing on Atlanta-Charlotte for the time being.

Agree about Atlanta stations. The Hartsfield ATL airport is scheduled to receive a station if the HSR proposal ( CLT - ATL ) ever gets off the ground ( somewhat doubtful ). A full build out of Atlanta stations would be Doraville, Austell, Stone mountain vicinity or Tucker, downtown, and ATL airport. Those as well as the present Peachtree station.

ATL airport might be able to get a good station on the CSX ( A & WP ) line that runs under the people mover from the ATL terminal to the rental car combined facility. There is room there for about 6 station tracks under the people mover that can add a people mover station stop for connecting passengers.

An Atlanta station would be best located in the Gulch (adjacent to the Dome-GWCC or Five Points MARTA Stations), and failing that, at Georgia Institute of Technology, Georgia State University, Spelman College, or Howells Junction. Ideally there would be strong secondary stations (either commuter or intercity) at Emory University and Atlanta Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport. However, Peachtree is a good through station, and the area could host something like Richmond-Staples Mill Road. In the drawings I'm attaching below, I think we could duplicate RVM as a "snack" for Atlanta, something adequate for expansion that would tide them over and give them impetus to get a downtown station.

[b}Option 1: Atlanta-Atlantic Station[/b] This station uses the existing infrastructure as much as possible, specifically the Atlantic Steel Spur bridge over I-75 and some of the existing rail alignments. It has nine tracks (Tracks 0-8), three through platforms (Platforms C-E) and four stub platforms (Platforms A-B accessed from the southwest, Platforms F-G from the northeast), as well as one 460 ft wye track (Track 9) and a fuel pad (Track 8a.) Most of the platforms will fit 12 cars, except for Platform C (10 cars) and Platform D (8 cars.)

Aside from the concourse and headhouse (shown in dark blue) and light gray (service roads), the station comes along with redevelopment possibilities for the areas shown in orange (commercial developments possibly including a hotel, condos, corporate offices, small & large retail, and performance venues) and green (public parkland.)

Option 2: Atlanta-Peachtree/Atlantic Station This station takes advantage of air space over I-75 by building a new six-track bridge over the highway. In all, there are seven through tracks and six platforms; the shortest (Platform F) fits 9 cars - adequate for the current Crescent - and the longest (Platform A) can hold a whopping 23 cars. Though there aren't stub passenger tracks, Platforms A-C (23, 21, and 19 cars respectively) can serve as stubs if necessary. I think you could install a center crossover between Track 1 and Track 2 as well. At lower left, Tracks 7a, 8, and 9 are service and storage tracks including a fueling pad, and the wye at lower right has a 680 foot tail track.

Again, the orange and green areas represent similar commercial and public space, and the gray represents roadways and service driveways. This plan also includes adaptive reuse of the Atlantic Steel Spur bridge - since Amtrak wouldn't be using it, I've programmed it to become the Atlantic Steelway Linear Park between Peachtree Road and Atlantic Station. The highways and railroads unnecessarily separate these neighborhoods, so this is a way to start to repair those divisions. Much more expensive than option 1, but perhaps better for the future.

Option 2 does look good. biggest problem is the lack of a loop . The wye does limit length of trains. A real problem is that nowhere a station is located will be CP Howell. Since the state of Ga owns the CSX line it may be persuaded to build the required flyovers to make it a proper CP for on time passenger service. If the CSX line could tunnel under CP and NS flyovers be built that would help immensely. Maybe the CP could become a part time manned CP until the flyovers are complete ?

At one time it was proposed that Atlanta would become a multi RR dispatch center. That might solve the problems and the 2 NS and 2 CSX main tracks that parallel each other from Howell to the gulch become all part of a good 4 main track complex.

That has to be done before any commuter rail service is started.

Quick correction, there are three NS tracks from Howell to the Gulch.

NIMBYkiller wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:21 pm A new or expanded station is definitely going to be needed if Atlanta's potential is to be realized, as well as a crew/maintenance/layover facility, but I think we're forgetting something VERY important. With Hartsfield-Jackson being such an important airport, I would argue that any service terminating in Atlanta that can be should be thru run to the airport and ultimately terminate there. That being said, an expanded downtown (or wherever in Atlanta it is decided) station should still be done as the volume of passengers will likely be greatest there, but the layover facility should be by the airport at the end of the route.

Amtrak's mission is not to serve airports; that's something Atlanta should do, and does, via MARTA, and could do via commuter rail. At limited frequencies (one, two?), what good would an airport stop do with Amtrak service, especially using it as a terminal. I wouldn't even have it stop there if some version of SEHSR materializes, or what they're contemplating with their Tennessee proposal via Chattanooga, through Atlanta heading south to Macon and Savannah.

west point wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 11:28 pm Agree about Atlanta stations. The Hartsfield ATL airport is scheduled to receive a station if the HSR proposal ( CLT - ATL ) ever gets off the ground ( somewhat doubtful ). A full build out of Atlanta stations would be Doraville, Austell, Stone mountain vicinity or Tucker, downtown, and ATL airport. Those as well as the present Peachtree station.

ATL airport might be able to get a good station on the CSX ( A & WP ) line that runs under the people mover from the ATL terminal to the rental car combined facility. There is room there for about 6 station tracks under the people mover that can add a people mover station stop for connecting passengers.

Something like that, with so many stops, is a commuter service, not Amtrak. Amtrak is not going to have the frequencies to provide meaningful service to the airport or any of those stations.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 7:08 pm

NIMBYkiller wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:21 pm A new or expanded station is definitely going to be needed if Atlanta's potential is to be realized, as well as a crew/maintenance/layover facility, but I think we're forgetting something VERY important. With Hartsfield-Jackson being such an important airport, I would argue that any service terminating in Atlanta that can be should be thru run to the airport and ultimately terminate there. That being said, an expanded downtown (or wherever in Atlanta it is decided) station should still be done as the volume of passengers will likely be greatest there, but the layover facility should be by the airport at the end of the route.

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Amtrak's mission is not to serve airports; that's something Atlanta should do, and does, via MARTA, and could do via commuter rail. At limited frequencies (one, two?), what good would an airport stop do with Amtrak service, especially using it as a terminal. I wouldn't even have it stop there if some version of SEHSR materializes, or what they're contemplating with their Tennessee proposal via Chattanooga, through Atlanta heading south to Macon and Savannah.

RENFE, SNCF, FS, DB, and lots of other systems seem to do quite well serving airports. The model came in handy at FRA, CDG and most recent Oslo a few months ago. Takes vehicles off the road. It's convenient, and it works well. Of course, service is every 30 minutes or less, and so Amtrak would never be able to attain that. Amtrak and Continental / United's partnership worked well, especially if one lived east of New York.

I did a search for Amtrak's mission statement and came up short. They have goals, but that's not a mission. Perhaps someone can find it--if it exists.

I love all the drawings of a layout for a station for Atlanta at Atlantic Station. This is much better than the original (abandoned) proposal at 17th street half a mile west. In all, this would be a fantastic spot, but for the fact that it has no connection to MARTA. In that sense, it is no different from the current station, but when there are opportunities to do so it seems like a waste to leave that on the table. Nonetheless it is an option that merits consideration.

I would say that, in the end, there should be two intercity stations in the direct vicinity of Atlanta. One of them should be Five Points. Ultimately, this is where a station belongs, especially in a world of high speed rail and multiple commuter lines. There are the most jobs, hotels, residents, destinations, available within walking distance here. Not to mention transit connections to *all* MARTA lines, and fairly solid highway access. But for the present, it has some significant downside, in that building the station would be expensive, and the Crescent would essentially have to be split into a NYP-ATL train and a ATL-NOL train. Leave space for this one (design it and buy the land) but punt on building it for now, and build the second station first.

The possible locations on the table for that second station should overlap with the possible commuter rail stations in the I-85 corridor. From north to south:

• Doraville- Existing MARTA station, on the Yellow line. Somewhat promising (but slow moving) mixed use development planned. Big benefit is access to northern and northeastern suburbs via I-85 and I-285. 12 miles from Five Points but more in the thick of suburban Atlanta than Gainesville, so it basically brings intercity rail access to whole different population.
• Lenox- Existing MARTA station, on the Yellow line. in a very busy area with lots of stuff within walking distance (but not a very walkable environment.) A decent 7 miles from Five Points, and good highway access, especially to northern suburbs via GA400.
• Armour- Not much there today, but lies at the intersection of the Beltline, Yellow/Red MARTA, and the Norfolk Southern rail line, with decent highway access. An infill MARTA station here has been studied, and would be possible. If that were in the plans, this would be near the top of the list.
• Atlantic Station- Plenty of space for a good station (as noted above); near an active area (Atlantic Station and Midtown). Allows for through-routing of the Crescent. However, has poor transit connections (no MARTA). Also, relatively close to Five Points, so you don't really gain any additional coverage.
• West Midtown (Northside Drive or North Ave) - This would be a good spot for a commuter rail station, and good access to Ga Tech, but not that great for an intercity station, with limited land available, poor transit connections. Very close to Five Points, and no ability to run the Crescent through so this wouldn't be a first choice.

Of the above, long term I think putting a secondary intercity station at Doraville would be the best, as a suburban counterpart to a main station at Five Points. (As an aside, I think any future extension of MARTA should be abandoned, and commuter rail selected as the mode of choice for transit expansion into the NE suburbs. Start with a transfer to MARTA at Doraville, similar to the plan for the Lovejoy commuter line, which will initially connect with MARTA at East Point - but eventually bring it all the way downtown.)

In the short term, I think building what will eventually become a commuter rail station at Lenox (providing a connection with MARTA) but using it as an intercity station *for now* could be a decent interim solution. I do not think building a large station with many platforms at Atlantic Station will ever be the right call, because no MARTA connection is available there. Perhaps an interim intercity station could work there too, but when all you're building is something to serve the Crescent, I don't see enough benefit compared with the existing situation at Peachtree.