NEC now Fixed Seating Including Rear-Facing

I rode round trip on Brightline from Orlando to Miami. Everything was great except for the seats. The back does not recline at all. The seat itself only moves forward a couple of inches. Three hours in those seats is all I could take. I hope they don't use them in the new long distance cars.

Does anyone know when Amtrak first stopped turning seats on the routes on that fact sheet? I saw the post about 1980 and the Pennsylvania services, but in terms of the Midwest State supported trains out of Chicago, was it all of the routes at once or piecemeal?

I get that this isn't the end of the world, but forcing half the riders to ride backwards is lousy no matter where it is. I hear the Europe argument, except we're the United States, not Europe and frankly I could care less about how they run their trains. This is just another nail in the coffin of what was once standard in American coach rail travel...you faced forward. I hear the heavyweight Pullman argument, but that wasn't coach it was Pullman. As Mr. Norman pointed out the walkover seats were once standard. Here in NY we had them on Metro-North on the old New York Central 1962 and 1965 built Pullman-Standard MU cars until they were retired in 2005. They were great, commuters loved them. On the very same NYC electric lines, when the M-1 Metropolitan MU cars with fixed seats were introduced in 1971 the seating was the commuters main gripe with those cars. Same on the old New Haven two years later when the M-2 Cosmopolitan MU cars were introduced. Fifty years ago it was the exception and now it's the norm, but that doesn't make it good. You don't ride in planes, cars or buses backwards...why should a train be any different? I highly doubt anyone was ever excited to find out that half of the seats in their train now face the wrong way, no matter where or when it was implemented.

I don't the answer to your question about when any routes stopped turning seats.

In the late 1990's, presumably in response to a death in some accident, the FRA ran crash tests of seats with instrumented dummies on sleds. They now require that all new seat models, including attachment points to the car, be tested that way before they are allowed to be used. All safety studies show that passengers in rear facing seats are less likely to suffer neck or back injuries than those in forward facing seats in the event of sudden deceleration.

My impression is that Amtrak always attempted to turn entire trains, not individual seats whenever possible, so I'd think that once lines were equipped with cab cars or top and tail locomotives to avoid the need to turn equipment, those trains began to get seats that were rear-facing. The Keystones and the Pennsylvanian always had rear facing seats on at least part of the journey if only because those trains reverse direction of travel in Philadelphia. I think they still turn seats on the Auto Train, but don't know one way or the other (I always travelled that route in sleepers and they are always on the north end of the train which is why I'm certain they don't turn that train).

When my kids were younger, we would always try to get seats facing each other with a table in between if we could (this was on the Acelas) or spent a lot of time in the cafe cars at a table, and my wife I still prefer to travel that way, so I'm looking forward to rear facing seats in the Airo trains.

RandallW wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:55 am When my kids were younger, we would always try to get seats facing each other with a table in between if we could (this was on the Acelas) or spent a lot of time in the cafe cars at a table, and my wife I still prefer to travel that way, so I'm looking forward to rear facing seats in the Airo trains.

From what I have read Amtrak is going with having half the seats face the ends of the cars from the center so there are no cozy facing table seats in the center of the Amfleet car.

If they face the ends from the center there should be facing seats at the ends (unless the space is used for accessible seating).

PC1100 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:51 am You don't ride in planes, cars or buses backwards...why should a train be any different?

Huh? I've been in plenty of buses with rear facing seats. Have you ever been on the New York City Subway? R44 and 46 cars had rear facing seats and were built in the 70s. R68 built in the 80s. Rest of the fleet has sideways facing seats, I actually can't even imagine what subways have forward facing seats apart from the R44/46/68s.

Plenty of buses have similar arrangements. Cars don't have backwards facing seats because the driver has to face forward and there is zero operational benefit to having the other people in the car face backwards. Though plenty of station wagons in the past had rear facing jump seats for kids.

A train should be different because trains can run backwards. Cars and planes don't, so they have to be turned around to go anywhere, so it's impossible for the seats to end up being backwards.

My window van with 4 bench seats had 2 that could be turned around.

lensovet wrote:

PC1100 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:51 am You don't ride in planes, cars or buses backwards...why should a train be any different?

Huh? I've been in plenty of buses with rear facing seats. Have you ever been on the New York City Subway? R44 and 46 cars had rear facing seats and were built in the 70s. R68 built in the 80s. Rest of the fleet has sideways facing seats, I actually can't even imagine what subways have forward facing seats apart from the R44/46/68s.

Plenty of buses have similar arrangements. Cars don't have backwards facing seats because the driver has to face forward and there is zero operational benefit to having the other people in the car face backwards. Though plenty of station wagons in the past had rear facing jump seats for kids.

A train should be different because trains can run backwards. Cars and planes don't, so they have to be turned around to go anywhere, so it's impossible for the seats to end up being backwards.

I should have been more clear, I was thinking non rapid transit services and my reference to buses was with the coach type bus in mind, as in NYC Express Buses and inter city buses. To me this boils down to providing comfortable, desirable service, and I just don't think making people ride backwards for trips over 4 hours does that. Here's why this doesn't match up with the transit comparison. A trip from 34th Street-Herald Square to Brighton Beach Brooklyn on either the D or Q train averages 50 minutes on a weekday at 5PM and this is towards the long end of subway commutes. Sideways, backwards, forwards, plastic seat, maybe you're standing, it costs $2.90 and it's the New York City Subway...I don't think anyone is expecting anymore from it than that, it's what it has been basically since its inception. NJT, NY Penn to Trenton on a weekday around 5PM, a 1 hour 12 minute ride, $16.75 one way fare. Here you have a cushioned seat and if it's a Multi-level car a 50% chance you might ride backwards. Again, it's what you expect on a modern commuter train. It serves its purpose and I don't think anyone expects more from it. Now compare this with NY Penn to Richmond, VA on Regional train No. 85, you're looking at a 6 hour 16 minute ride on a $180 ticket. This isn't a commute, it's an occasional trip for someone who does't want to spend hours driving I-95 or fly. Now they have to spend over 6 hours riding backwards because Amtrak won't turn the seat for a trip that's over 300 miles. Philadelphia to Boston is an average 6 hour 15 minute ride on a Regional. Not to mention Empire Service, NY to Niagara Falls, 9 hours 15 minutes, that will be great riding backwards. And wait, here's an even better one, NY Penn to Charlotte on the Carolinian, 13 hours 31 minutes. They are taking it a little too far in my opinion. Leave it at the NY-Washington Regionals. With Acela you are paying a premium, at least they can turn the seats to face forward. Just because a train can have seats facing backwards doesn't mean a train should.
Just to compare these trip times with existing fixed seat inter city runs...Miami to Orlando on Brightline is a 3 hour 30 minute ride. Chicago to Milwaukee is 1 hour 30 minutes, Boston to Portland is 2 hours 30 minutes, Portland to Seattle is 3 hours 25 minutes, Chicago to St. Louis is 5 hours, Chicago to Detroit is 5 hours 20 minutes, St. Louis to Kansas City is 5 hours 40 minutes.

Those who recall full size station wagons in the 60s/70s and even into the 80s and early 90s, the optional third row (for 8 or 9 seat configuration) was usually rearward facing.

As late as 1996 you could order a Chevy Caprice or Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera Cruiser with third row seat.

Can anyone point to studies indicating that the rear-facing seats on the Acela (7 hours BOS to WAS) or Pacific Surfliner (8.5 hours SAN to SLO) services have been cause for complaint?

Now that I think about it, the Pacific Surfliner changes directions in LAX, with the engine facing San Luis Obispo north of LAX and San Diego south of LAX, so if you do any single seat journey thru LAX on that train, you are facing to the rear during some part of your trip no matter what.

PC1100 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:51 am You don't ride in planes, cars or buses backwards...why should a train be any different? I highly doubt anyone was ever excited to find out that half of the seats in their train now face the wrong way, no matter where or when it was implemented.

I don't know about you but the railroad.net management team limosine definitely has rearward-facing seats. Jeff Smith drives and Perkowski leans out the sunroof with his phone whilst doing the "honk here" airhorn sign with his arm while we pace trains. Sadly JP Fiorentino has called Metro North cops on us like seventy times. Maybe we should just paint the ghostbusters sign on the side of the car.

I certainly empathize with the thoughts Mr. PC1100 expressed in his immediate post to this topic. I too prefer forward riding; I related the Innsbruck to St. Anton am Arlberg ride earlier, and I add to that my most recent Amtrak ride on 52(the day Kobe Bryant was killed). I was assigned Bedroom L, which is backwards. However, the Attendant said I could have forward riding A, and I gladly took her up on that.

But volks, it's time for Kubler-Ross Phase 5 - Acceptance. As I've noted at other discussions, Amtrak is in the transportation business, and not the experiential. This change will increase operational efficiency- and that at this time takes precedence.

I recently booked my daughter and two of her friends into Acela business class. The Amtrak booking site defaulting to seating them together at a table with 1 riding rear facing across from the other 2 riding forward (so they were in a group on the same side of the aisle).

I'd say its a pity Amtrak is not setting up the Amfleet to accommodate that seating arrangement.