Mystery Crossing

A friend of mine forwarded this photo to me this morning, which he found on the Internet. He said that it is supposedly in Vermont or Connecticut.

A couple of observations on my part:
--- This was probably taken sometime between 1900 and 1920, from a bridge upon which the photographer was standing (note the tell-tale).
--- Note the curved track in the left foreground, which descends the hill, apparently alongside the road. Almost certainly a trolley track.
--- Taken on a main line, no question.

My gut instinct --- which may well be wrong --- tells me that this is somewhere on the CV in Vermont. I'm by no means certain.

I don't think it's Vermont. I think it's the Berkshires. Couple reasons:

-So far as I know, the CV was never double-tracked, but that looks like a double-track main: I don't think you'd build a massive fill and a bridge for a siding.
-The hills don't seem high or steep enough to be the Green Mountains.
-That mountain in the left background, above the telltales, looks exactly like Greylock.

My gut is that you're looking at either the B&A west of Washington Hill or the B&M west of the Hoosac Tunnel; most likely the B&A, since IIRC the B&M sticks down on the floor of the Hoosick River valley heading up to North Adams, while the B&A is up on the hillsides.

If I'm right, you should be able to figure out the exact location w. the help of a topo map and a map of the Berkshire Street Railway routes.

Ridgefielder wrote:I don't think it's Vermont. I think it's the Berkshires. Couple reasons:

-So far as I know, the CV was never double-tracked, but that looks like a double-track main: I don't think you'd build a massive fill and a bridge for a siding.
-The hills don't seem high or steep enough to be the Green Mountains.
-That mountain in the left background, above the telltales, looks exactly like Greylock.

My gut is that you're looking at either the B&A west of Washington Hill or the B&M west of the Hoosac Tunnel; most likely the B&A, since IIRC the B&M sticks down on the floor of the Hoosick River valley heading up to North Adams, while the B&A is up on the hillsides.

If I'm right, you should be able to figure out the exact location w. the help of a topo map and a map of the Berkshire Street Railway routes.

Dunno if this is of any help.. http://www.wardmaps.com/viewasset.php?aid=14037

My friend who sent me the picture thinks it could be on the B&M Conn River line just north of Charlestown, N.H., where the old Springfield Terminal Railway trolley line veered off to the west after paralleling the B&M for a few miles. He maintains that the mountain in the far left background may be Ascutney.

I've done a little investigation. I don't think his conjecture fits. I can't find a point on the Charlestown area topo maps that squares with the location --- bridge, crossing and trolley curve all adjacent to one another.

trainsinmaine wrote:
I've done a little investigation. I don't think his conjecture fits.

Correct. The junction of the B&M and the ancestral Springfield Terminal at North Charlestown looked nothing like that... no big east/west valley, and the ST line didn't take a downward dive when it veered east from the B&M.

With respect to the Berkshire Street Railway theory, here is a link to a detailed map of all street railway lines in Massachusetts as of January 1913:

http://archives.lib.state.ma.us/handle/2452/50833

i don't know where the photo was taken, but that isn't mt ascutney in the background. the hill in the picture does not have the correct contours or profile to be ascutney. i see ascutney from various places weekly, and that isn't it.

wally

I'm guessing that this is the B & M and photo was taken from the trolley bridge. Steam railroads fought to keep trolley lines from crossing at grade at locations where trains moved along. In the BERKSHIRE ST. RY. book, 1972 Conn. Valley Chapter NRHS, by O. R. Cummings, there are two crossings of the B & M, Williamstown to North Adams. The one on Cole Ave., Williamstown is by where the Williamstown station was located, so there'd probably be a little more than just wide open spaces. However, the other is between Blackinton and North Adams. Book says trolley crossed the B & M. Map in book drawn by "A. Nelson, 1972" shows trolley overpasses at both locations. Just because a public street crossed at grade did not mean a trolley line could do the same. Trolley trackage in this area was built by Hoosac Valley St. Railway, eventually incorporated into the Berkshire system. The B & A had several crossings with the Berkshire, but they were in populated area like Pittsfield and Dalton. When the Berkshire's Huckleberry Line was completed it ran up to the B & A grade xing in Huntington and could not connect to the Springfield St. Ry.'s line on the other side of the xing. (Sometimes cars were exchanged between the two New Haven-owned systems by dragging them across the B & A.)

The mainline looks to be oriented east-west given the time of year, winter, and the shadow length. Looks like from a postcard, if the address side is visible, you can check the postmark & get some clues that way.
The line to the right looks like a trolley line - note the rectangular white sign at the left pole - trolley stop sign??? But I don't see the trolley wire or the pull-offs needed for that sharp curve.

Your best bet is the telephone line at the right. An employees timetable for the railroad would have the layout of the communication lines in the various divisions. A three-arm line is generally mainline & seeing how many lines/arm & their configuration will narrow the search.

I'd rule out the Central Vermont just from the colour of the ballast - they used limestone in Mass & Conn.

I'm still baffled by this, and one of the things that makes it baffling to me is the telegraph poles along the railroad. I've always been observant about such things, and these don't resemble anything I know along either the B&M or B&A during the early- or
mid-twentieth century. I've seen photos of the B&A,the Fitchburg, and the Conn River that were taken during the period this seems to depict, and these three-tiered, 6-6-10 poles just don't fit. Then again, I may be missing something: railroads used to change their telegraph poles as the number of depots expanded and contracted over the years.

Whatever the case, I don't think this was taken in the vicinity of Blackinton or Williamstown. Even a hundred years ago, the area depicted seems much too rural.

CannaScrews wrote:The mainline looks to be oriented east-west given the time of year, winter, and the shadow length. Looks like from a postcard, if the address side is visible, you can check the postmark & get some clues that way.
The line to the right looks like a trolley line - note the rectangular white sign at the left pole - trolley stop sign??? But I don't see the trolley wire or the pull-offs needed for that sharp curve.

Your best bet is the telephone line at the right. An employees timetable for the railroad would have the layout of the communication lines in the various divisions. A three-arm line is generally mainline & seeing how many lines/arm & their configuration will narrow the search.

I'd rule out the Central Vermont just from the colour of the ballast - they used limestone in Mass & Conn.

If you enlarge it you can see what appears to be trolley wire and poles, although it's quite faint. Looks like they alternate on either side of those tracks as they curve away to the left.

Occurs to me that this could also be part of the Maybrook Line, where it climbs toward the top of the Dutchess County highlands near Poughquag-- there are plenty of people on this board who have seen the Maybrook from a cab window & might be able to comment.

Ridgefielder wrote:

CannaScrews wrote:
Occurs to me that this could also be part of the Maybrook Line, where it climbs toward the top of the Dutchess County highlands near Poughquag-- there are plenty of people on this board who have seen the Maybrook from a cab window & might be able to comment.

Great minds run in the same direction(?? ) --- I've also wondered whether this might be the Maybrook, very little of which I've ever seen.

It does not look like any part of the Maybrook Line, too straight for one thing. I think it is in the State of Massachusetts, why, because the grade crossing sign is peculiar to the style of early such signs in Massachusetts. I remember seeing some of this nature on the New Haven's Berkshire Line around Ashley Falls many, many years ago. Way back when different states had different styles of grade crossing signs, New York, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Maine come to mind but I guess most of the others had different styles as well.
Noel Weaver

Ridgefielder wrote:

CannaScrews wrote:The mainline looks to be oriented east-west given the time of year, winter, and the shadow length. Looks like from a postcard, if the address side is visible, you can check the postmark & get some clues that way.
The line to the right looks like a trolley line - note the rectangular white sign at the left pole - trolley stop sign??? But I don't see the trolley wire or the pull-offs needed for that sharp curve.

Your best bet is the telephone line at the right. An employees timetable for the railroad would have the layout of the communication lines in the various divisions. A three-arm line is generally mainline & seeing how many lines/arm & their configuration will narrow the search.

I'd rule out the Central Vermont just from the colour of the ballast - they used limestone in Mass & Conn.

If you enlarge it you can see what appears to be trolley wire and poles, although it's quite faint. Looks like they alternate on either side of those tracks as they curve away to the left.

Occurs to me that this could also be part of the Maybrook Line, where it climbs toward the top of the Dutchess County highlands near Poughquag-- there are plenty of people on this board who have seen the Maybrook from a cab window & might be able to comment.

Yes, I too enlarged it and it does look (that's a hard look at that resolution) to me like there is catenary there.

Still a mystery . . . I personally can't rule out the Maybrook because I'm not very familiar with it. If indeed that is Greylock in the far left background, then I'm guessing instead that this is the B&A and that the photo was taken somewhere in Dalton or Hinsdale, or between the two. The Berkshire Street Railway had a branch to Hinsdale.

Note the long, gradual curve in the background. Clue, anyone?

I just looked at the 1948 USGS topo map of the Pittsfield East northeast quadrant. Dalton Road comes up a hill and makes an almost 90-degree turn before crossing the B&A and hooking onto Route 8. The B&A makes a long curve to the west just north of that point. If it was Dalton Road that hosted the Berkshire Street Rwy interurban, I think we may have our mystery solved. The trolley came up the hill alongside the road, swung south, went up over the B&A on a bridge, then went down Route 8 into the village.

Whaddya think? I haven't been to Hinsdale in about 44 years and I know neither its history nor the lay of the land.