Motive Power: Hudson line, late 1950' to mid 60's

Can anyone help me with identifying the motive power most often used on the Hudson Line between Albany/Selkirk and NYC/Harmon during the late 1950's to mid 1960's? I'm trying to find out both freight and passenger power, mainly on local freight and passenger runs, in an effort to collect the most appropriate motive power for a layout. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

From memory, passenger trains mostly E-7's and E-8's with an occasional steam generator equipped RS-3 or GP-7. Freight trains mostly EMD 4 axle units until the GE's came on the property in the early 60's when they were very much in the scene. Also present were 4 axle Alco/GE units of various vintages.
There are a number of very good books about the New York Central during this period and looking through them will also help answer this question.
Noel Weaver

I model roughly the same timeframe and territory that you're asking about. For local passenger and freight, the easiest thing is to load up on RS-2/3s, and throw a few RS-1s and GP7/9s into the mix to add some diversity to your fleet. If you decide to add road freights and long distance passenger trains, Alco FAs and EMD E units would be appropriate, and you can also include second generation freight power (e.g., GP 20/30/35/40s, U25Bs, RS-32s) as they were coming on line in the early-mid 60s.

The great thing about the NYC is that they had a huge, diverse fleet of locomotives, and while they made efforts to pool units into territories (e.g, EMDs on Lines West, Alcos on Lines East) the reality is that units of different makes and models floated around the system. So with few exceptions, you can run any NYC diesel on your layout and it would be prototypical.

Bill8106

A lot of photos from the 50s through the early 60s show an E8 MUd with an Alco PA (The E usually leading).

There are also some photos of passenger equipped F3's, of which I believe there were not many.

Having paid a number of visits to the Hudson Division from about 1962 to 1967 I would say the previous posters' descriptions are pretty accurate.

The late Charlie Smith was Central's Mechanical Engineer Locomotives and the chairman of a rail history group I belong to, the New York Chapter of the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society.

Having discussed Hudson Division locomotive practice with him, I can add several things. I recall Charlie saying that several of the Alco PAs were modified to MU with E units. First generation EMDs and Alcos did not MU, one had an electrical control system the other used air. The PAs that were modified to MU with E units would no longer MU with other Alcos.

The suburban passenger trains west of Harmon primarily used Budd RDC cars. Locomotive-hauled trains were mostly used only during the rush hour. There was a small group of 5700 series GP7s used in this service. I have seen photos of 8200 series Alco RS3s on the trains during the time period you mention but I never saw them in person.

There were about six steam-equipped F3s (two A-B-A consists) but I think they mostly ran on the B&A.

I don't know as I ever saw a 5700 series Geep in local freight service, just the Alco RS3s, though it probably happened. At North Tarrytown, Central seemed to use mostly yard type engines at the GM plant there. They also used these small switcher types on the transfer runs or pullers that brought cars down to the auto plant from the Croton yard, dropped there by road freights. I saw the same type power almost exclusively at the Yonkers yard and at FH in the Bronx at Marble Hill. People that worked at those yards told me that is what they recall as well.

The road freights I saw were mostly all A-B-A Alco FAs. When Central began to acquire large numbers of second generation diesels, after about 1963, this began to change. At first I often saw trios of 2500 series U25Bs. By 1965 or 1966 the road freights began to get very mixed consists and you were likely to see just about anything Central owned!

Thanks for all the help !!

Very good information - but one slight correction! The ALCO-GE road units used two electrical jumpers (a 21 point and a 12 point) while the EMD E-units used a single 17 point. So the modification was simpler than converting from an air throttle to electric- it just involved rewiring and replacement of the jumpers to match the EMD units.

The only road locomotives you'd find with air throttles were Baldwins of any model, and Fairbanks-Morse road switchers; the air throttle systems used by the two were not compatible with each other, either. Both makers of course had optional electric throttles. No ALCO-GE units were ever built with air throttles to my knowledge.

-Will Davis

Thanks Will for the reply I enjoyed reading it. I am sure you're right about the MU jumper cable pins being the basis of the modification of the PAs to MU with E units. Fwiw I remember Charlie Smith telling us at a New York Chapter R&LHS meeting that the PAs modified had the letters "EMD" stenciled on their carbody sides. He said it shows up in some photos.

I recall his discussing jumper cable pins with us but in a slightly different context.

At one meeting I showed Charlie what was to me an astounding photo. On page 43 in the Kalmbach book "New York Central in the Hudson River Valley" is a photo of a 4400 series FM Erie-built passenger unit departing Harmon NY on Train No.39 THE NORTH SHORE LIMITED in the early 1950s. In the photo, taken by by Jim Shaughnessy, the trailing unit is a 3600 series F3B!

Charlie said the photo was very interesting, that he'd never seen it and he thanked me for showing it to him. (Charlie also said some people might wonder if the F3 unit wound up pushing the FM and pulling the train!)

I asked Charlie would the Erie-built and F3 MU?, that I didn't think they would. His answer was very interesting.

He said the two builders used MU cables with the same or nearly the same (I don't remember which) number of pins but in a different order. He said the engineer in the cab of the 4400 would've been able to draw power from the EMD unit but not too much else. He wouldn't have been able to ring the unit's bell, turn on or off the backup light and, possibly, operate the B unit's sanders. He could recall off hand which wires controlled which functions on an EMD unit but only a few on FM cab units. But he emphasized they were not fully compatible.

He said the problem with this was, under ICC regulations trailing units in a consist had to be fully controlled by the engineer in the lead unit. Charlie said, "They weren't supposed to do this [operate the FM with the EMD unit]. This is an ICC violation and if an ICC field inspector had seen it the railroad would've been fined."

I wondered if they did it because they were short on locomotives? Charlie said that was possible, that there could be a number of reasons why they did it. Then, slipping into his "stern railroad official persona," he said, "The bottom line is, they shouldn't have done it!"