More Tunnel News

I think amtrak should terminate most service at newark penn, with baggage capable coaches taking passengers into manhattan. NJT should terminate some trains at newark but most at SEC, and have shuttles between SEC, HOB and NYP. Newark light rail connection could have added frequency with those longer modified LRV's. Add in other bus service, increase ferry frequency and key bus routes, and re-direct some midtown direct to hoboken, while terminating the rest at newark broad street.

I dunno if any of this makes sense, but from my layperson's perspective, it should spread the load between PATH, the remaining tunnel, ferries, and the two tunnels. GWB could be another alternative for some of the inner hoboken div stations.

25Hz wrote:I think amtrak should terminate most service at newark penn, with baggage capable coaches taking passengers into manhattan. NJT should terminate some trains at newark but most at SEC, and have shuttles between SEC, HOB and NYP. Newark light rail connection could have added frequency with those longer modified LRV's. Add in other bus service, increase ferry frequency and key bus routes, and re-direct some midtown direct to hoboken, while terminating the rest at newark broad street.

I dunno if any of this makes sense, but from my layperson's perspective, it should spread the load between PATH, the remaining tunnel, ferries, and the two tunnels. GWB could be another alternative for some of the inner hoboken div stations.

Since Amtrak owns the tunnels I think that Amtrak will not terminate anything in Newark except when both tunnels are shut down simultaneously (more on that in a minute). I am not sure, but I don't think that the NEC side of SEC and Newark Broad Street are designed to be used as terminals. I do not think your ideas of shuttles will work as that will give no one a one-seat ride. I agree with added bus service, but I do not know where they could be sent to except for the GWB or ferry terminals.

A few more notes, PATH will be massively over capacity even though it will have decreased headway with the new signals and longer trains on NWK-WTC. Most of the New York ferry terminals are in downtown when the problem is in midtown. Each tunnel is currently being taken out of service at night and weekends for smaller work. When the first tunnel is out, the second will need service sometime (the later the closures happen, the more often both tunnels must be closed.). I think this is the real reason that Amtrak does not want to close a tunnel.

25Hz wrote:I think amtrak should terminate most service at newark penn, with baggage capable coaches taking passengers into manhattan. NJT should terminate some trains at newark but most at SEC, and have shuttles between SEC, HOB and NYP.

According to http://www.realtransit.org/tao_2013_7.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , NJ Transit has 168000 boardings or alightings at NYP on a typical weekday, and Amtrak has 26000 NEC boardings or alightings at NYP (I don't know how many of those passengers are from south of NYP or how many through passengers there are). This counts round-trip passengers twice.

I think that will be an awful lot of buses.

Yeah, i'm aware that the stations i mentioned were not meant to be used as terminals. it'd be a two year temporary re-programming of all the movements that normally terminate at hoboken & nyp.

The buses can go to the PABT, as well as ferry terminals. Doesn't matter that it will send people downtown, as NYCT/PA will likely have buses to meet the ferries, and the 1/2/3 & A/C/E will need to get more frequent service akin to how PATH and co run, with less mid-day trains.

As i've said, this isn't going to be some slapped together last minute thing. One seat ride..... yea, not going to happen for 60%+ of trains now originating/terminating at NYP.

loufah wrote:According to realtransit.org, NJ Transit has 168000 boardings or alightings at NYP on a typical weekday...I think that will be an awful lot of buses.

If one of Amtrak's Hudson River tunnels had to be suddenly taken out of service there is no real solution for rush hour. There are about 200,000 people coming into the Port Authority Bus Terminal (PABT) everyday now. All the alternate means are already maxed out at rush hour: PABT, PATH, GWB, the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels. If it happens I think the best they can do is schedule more ferry service which will at least get some of the ridership to West Street or Twelfth Avenue. Possibly they would add service to East River piers. Based on what has happened during transit strikes, I would guess authorities will also be appealing to people to use car pools. I'm sure the economy in New York City and northern New Jersey will not collapse, because somehow we always manage to get through these situations. But it will be very very difficult for everyone in New Jersey who commutes to New York City and I'm sure there will be some people who won't be able to get in to the city.

25Hz wrote:Yeah, i'm aware that the stations i mentioned were not meant to be used as terminals. it'd be a two year temporary re-programming of all the movements that normally terminate at hoboken & nyp.

The buses can go to the PABT, as well as ferry terminals. Doesn't matter that it will send people downtown, as NYCT/PA will likely have buses to meet the ferries, and the 1/2/3 & A/C/E will need to get more frequent service akin to how PATH and co run, with less mid-day trains.

As i've said, this isn't going to be some slapped together last minute thing. One seat ride..... yea, not going to happen for 60%+ of trains now originating/terminating at NYP.

Where in the PABT are they going to go? It is at 125% of capacity during rush hour already. One of the problems with the ferries is that most of them are not close to public transportation in NYC. There is no west side subway. The closest NYCT bus to the West Midtown Ferry Terminal is 3 blocks to the north, M42 and M50. M34 is 4 blocks south and the new 7 line station will be about 4 short and 1 long block southeast. The closest northbound bus is 2 long blocks and southbound 3 long blocks east. NY Waterway does run its own buses to and from the terminal.

zerovanity59 wrote:

25Hz wrote:Yeah, i'm aware that the stations i mentioned were not meant to be used as terminals. it'd be a two year temporary re-programming of all the movements that normally terminate at hoboken & nyp.

The buses can go to the PABT, as well as ferry terminals. Doesn't matter that it will send people downtown, as NYCT/PA will likely have buses to meet the ferries, and the 1/2/3 & A/C/E will need to get more frequent service akin to how PATH and co run, with less mid-day trains.

As i've said, this isn't going to be some slapped together last minute thing. One seat ride..... yea, not going to happen for 60%+ of trains now originating/terminating at NYP.

Where in the PABT are they going to go? It is at 125% of capacity during rush hour already. One of the problems with the ferries is that most of them are not close to public transportation in NYC. There is no west side subway. The closest NYCT bus to the West Midtown Ferry Terminal is 3 blocks to the norht, M42 and M50. M34 is 4 blocks south and the new 7 line station will be about 4 short and 1 long block southeast. The closest northbound bus is 2 long blocks and southbound 3 long blocks east. NY Waterway does run its own buses to and from the terminal.

The TA recently added a new bus route on 11th/12th Avenues that passes the Ferry Terminal. It's called the M12.

Ken S. wrote:

zerovanity59 wrote:

25Hz wrote:Yeah, i'm aware that the stations i mentioned were not meant to be used as terminals. it'd be a two year temporary re-programming of all the movements that normally terminate at hoboken & nyp.

The buses can go to the PABT, as well as ferry terminals. Doesn't matter that it will send people downtown, as NYCT/PA will likely have buses to meet the ferries, and the 1/2/3 & A/C/E will need to get more frequent service akin to how PATH and co run, with less mid-day trains.

As i've said, this isn't going to be some slapped together last minute thing. One seat ride..... yea, not going to happen for 60%+ of trains now originating/terminating at NYP.

Where in the PABT are they going to go? It is at 125% of capacity during rush hour already. One of the problems with the ferries is that most of them are not close to public transportation in NYC. There is no west side subway. The closest NYCT bus to the West Midtown Ferry Terminal is 3 blocks to the norht, M42 and M50. M34 is 4 blocks south and the new 7 line station will be about 4 short and 1 long block southeast. The closest northbound bus is 2 long blocks and southbound 3 long blocks east. NY Waterway does run its own buses to and from the terminal.

The TA recently added a new bus route on 11th/12th Avenues that passes the Ferry Terminal. It's called the M12.

Your right, I was using a map from June when the M60 SBS started.

As an aside - NY Waterway runs buses all day, especially at rush hour, from their west side midtown ferry terminal. I've taken the ferry to NYC on many occasions and I can grab a free bus directly to 30 Rock. No additional fee. Getting into other parts of town from the terminal is not a problem. When I take the ferry back from work or the theater district, I simply get the free bus...

http://www.nywaterway.com/ManhattanBus.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BigDell wrote:As an aside - NY Waterway runs buses all day, especially at rush hour, from their west side midtown ferry terminal. I've taken the ferry to NYC on many occasions and I can grab a free bus directly to 30 Rock. No additional fee. Getting into other parts of town from the terminal is not a problem. When I take the ferry back from work or the theater district, I simply get the free bus...

http://www.nywaterway.com/ManhattanBus.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what i was referring to, it'd just be beefed up with buses from other places that can spare them. PVL would get buses to the hudson line, i think.

All of the things some of you folks point out, like PABT capacity is exactly what is discussed with these planning efforts. It's not like they are going into these meetings with no clue about the current state of the greater NY metro area's transportation systems. Decamp, trans-bidge, and some other coach lines have their buses lay over in jersey city in unused parking lot areas. You could use that area as a staging spot for shuttles, as the holland tunnel is right there, and you got hoboken terminal within walking distance.

Once again, the other option is to try to move these jobs to New Jersey:
http://www.newarkofficespace.com
This option will not cost tax payers billions, and some prosperity in Newark could be useful to turn the place around. It worked in Hoboken, it is working in Jersey City, and there is no reason it cannot work in Newark.

Passaic River Rat wrote:Once again, the other option is to try to move these jobs to New Jersey:
http://www.newarkofficespace.com
This option will not cost tax payers billions, and some prosperity in Newark could be useful to turn the place around. It worked in Hoboken, it is working in Jersey City, and there is no reason it cannot work in Newark.

Exactly, if the jobs are in NJ, not as many people would need to commute to NYC.

morris&essex4ever wrote:

Passaic River Rat wrote:Once again, the other option is to try to move these jobs to New Jersey:
http://www.newarkofficespace.com
This option will not cost tax payers billions, and some prosperity in Newark could be useful to turn the place around. It worked in Hoboken, it is working in Jersey City, and there is no reason it cannot work in Newark.

Exactly, if the jobs are in NJ, not as many people would need to commute to NYC.

1. Moving your place of business because of a 2 year project is excessive.
2. Although it my be in New Jersey's interest to move jobs, that is not the issue here. If the transportation industry says to businesses, move out of the central business district of one of the two most powerful cities in the world because we can't get your workers and clients there, the transportation industry is not doing its job.
3. The problem with Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken, Brooklyn, Queens, Yonkers, or anywhere else other than Manhattan is that they only have access to some of the metro area.

I agree that moving jobs out of Manhattan is not a very good solution for the capacity problem affecting travel between New Jersey and Penn Station. First it would only be a partial solution; it wouldn't help Amtrak much. Second, moving a large number of jobs to Newark would require Newark to provide some pretty expensive infrastructure to make it possible. Water, sewer, police, fire protection, etc, infrastructure that already exists in Manhattan. Third I don't think it would be very effective; Jersey City (especially after 9/11) has been able to entice a number of Manhattan firms to move at least part of their operations to Jersey City. Yet PATH and NJ Transit are busier than ever.

Attracting some jobs out of Manhattan to New Jersey might help -- especially if you live in New Jersey and your job is one of the ones that gets moved -- but I don't see it as a realistic solution to lack of capacity in the Hudson River tunnels. Since Amtrak has basically taken over the project I don't think it matters either.

Or we could just make a proper plan, repair the tunnels, build out the full gateway project and related projects in NJ and sunnyside yard and finally do something right in this country regarding infrastructure.