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Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #1296572  by Defiant
 
JoeG wrote:Since the former ARC tunnel would not have connected to NYP, it would not have alleviated this issue by much. Christie did us an unintentional favor by canceling.
I doubt if there is much or any extra rush hour bus capacity in the Lincoln Tunnel or in the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The GWB terminal might be of some uses.
Likewise, even with a small increase in PATH capacity resulting from their new signal system, I don't see how they could handle the load. I'm hoping they can figure out how to do it on weekends, or can at least stall the Hudson tunnel phase of the project until some new infrastructure gets built.
The new tunnels that ARC would've provided could've easily handled the entire NJT trains if necessary. After, right now NJT trains fit into the two tunnels with Amtrak trains. And it would've been ready by 2018 - 2019. ARC was not perfect, but it would've been way better then a third world mess that NJ transportation will turn to if one tunnel has to be closed.
 #1296594  by ALP46A 4662
 
Most likely NJT and Amtrak will work something out whereas NJT and Amtrak Trains can run into NYP with one tunnel. If one tunnel has a 6 train per hour capacity, maybe amtrak can run 3 trains per hour and NJ Transit could run 3 trains per hour?
 #1296601  by Ken S.
 
ALP46A 4662 wrote:Most likely NJT and Amtrak will work something out whereas NJT and Amtrak Trains can run into NYP with one tunnel. If one tunnel has a 6 train per hour capacity, maybe Amtrak can run 3 trains per hour and NJ Transit could run 3 trains per hour?
That still wouldn't work during rush hours where the minimum NJT count is 8 trains (2 NEC, 2 NJCL, 3 M&E, and one Montclair).
 #1296605  by dowlingm
 
Were the tunnels hardened against flood intrusion post Sandy? One would think this would be a prerequisite to dropping this sort of $ and creating this sort of disruption?
 #1296608  by ALP46A 4662
 
zerovanity59 wrote:
25Hz wrote:Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.

This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.

It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.

Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
First of all, Amtrak has stated that they will not close the tunnels until new tunnels are opened. Second, there is one mode of cross Hudson transportation that is not currently at capacity, ferries. The ferry companies will make a killing and then go bankrupt when the tunnels reopen.
If amtrak doesn't close the tunnels until the new ones are built (hopefully) like zerovanity said, till then everything should be okay.
 #1296629  by ExCon90
 
Defiant wrote:
JoeG wrote:Since the former ARC tunnel would not have connected to NYP, it would not have alleviated this issue by much. Christie did us an unintentional favor by canceling.
I doubt if there is much or any extra rush hour bus capacity in the Lincoln Tunnel or in the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The GWB terminal might be of some uses.
Likewise, even with a small increase in PATH capacity resulting from their new signal system, I don't see how they could handle the load. I'm hoping they can figure out how to do it on weekends, or can at least stall the Hudson tunnel phase of the project until some new infrastructure gets built.
The new tunnels that ARC would've provided could've easily handled the entire NJT trains if necessary. After, right now NJT trains fit into the two tunnels with Amtrak trains. And it would've been ready by 2018 - 2019. ARC was not perfect, but it would've been way better then a third world mess that NJ transportation will turn to if one tunnel has to be closed.
Maybe the ARC tunnels could have handled the volume, but I don't see how a 6-track stub station with no tail tracks and no layup tracks could cope with the tunnel throughput hour after hour, day after day. I think that would have turned out to be a major scandal if ARC had been completed -- think what the tabloids could have done with a story that all that money was spent to build a station too small to handle as many trains as the tunnels could.
 #1296706  by Tommy Meehan
 
ALP46A 4662 wrote:If amtrak doesn't close the tunnels until the new ones are built (hopefully) like zerovanity said, till then everything should be okay.
What Amtrak has said is, the current Hudson River tunnels will need a major rebuilding at some point in the next two decades. Some 13 million gallons of salt water flooded the tunnels during Sandy and this has seriously exacerbated structural problems in the tunnels which have been in service since 1910.
"We have a tunnel expert engaged in doing a detailed analysis on the actual conditions and remedies," said Drew Galloway, Amtrak chief of Northeast Corridor Planning and Performance..."Sandy left long-term damage" to the tunnels, he said. "The storm damage triggered or greatly accelerated the deterioration we're seeing." That includes damage to the overhead wires and electrical systems that power trains, as well as the tunnels' concrete bench walls. It also accelerated the failure of tunnel drainage systems, Galloway said. Link
The problem is that Amtrak is not sure when the accelerated deterioration in tunnels might force Amtrak to take one of the tunnels out-of-service. There's some uncertainty. Amtrak President Joseph Boardman hopes it will be twenty years but he's said it COULD BE as few as ten.
 #1296747  by SecaucusJunction
 
I would assume this is a push to try to "scare" people into getting this Gateway tunnel project funded ASAP. The prospect of a single track tunnel for a year would be a disaster. I believe they are telling some truths, but I also think there could be some exaggeration going on with times and numbers.

Hopefully it works.
 #1296753  by BigDell
 
People would rather take a bus than go to Hoboken o.0 PATH drops people off a block from Penn Station...is that really the end of the world?
PATH at rush how resembles the Tokyo Yamanote line. I've done it a few times if biz took me to the WTC area. No, that'll be nasty if there is a dramatic increase in traffic during rush hour. When the time comes, if all things are still equal, I'll do the ferries. I actually like them quite a bit. Might even cruise down to the Highlands and try that one. It'll be intriguing to see how this all plays out!
 #1296757  by Tommy Meehan
 
SecaucusJunction wrote:I would assume this is a push to try to "scare" people into getting this Gateway tunnel project funded ASAP.
That was brought up in the Amtrak thread as well. That Boardman may be trying to lobby for the Gateway tunnels by claiming he might have to close one of the existing tunnels. There's probably some of both: politicking and actual risk. The damage done by Sandy is real, however, and the possibility the deterioration could at some point force the closure of one of the tunnels for operating or safety reasons is probably real, too. It's possible Boardman is also playing CYA so in case Amtrak DOES have to suddenly take a tunnel out of service no one can say they weren't warned.
 #1296812  by ALP46A 4662
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:
ALP46A 4662 wrote:If amtrak doesn't close the tunnels until the new ones are built (hopefully) like zerovanity said, till then everything should be okay.
What Amtrak has said is, the current Hudson River tunnels will need a major rebuilding at some point in the next two decades. Some 13 million gallons of salt water flooded the tunnels during Sandy and this has seriously exacerbated structural problems in the tunnels which have been in service since 1910.
"We have a tunnel expert engaged in doing a detailed analysis on the actual conditions and remedies," said Drew Galloway, Amtrak chief of Northeast Corridor Planning and Performance..."Sandy left long-term damage" to the tunnels, he said. "The storm damage triggered or greatly accelerated the deterioration we're seeing." That includes damage to the overhead wires and electrical systems that power trains, as well as the tunnels' concrete bench walls. It also accelerated the failure of tunnel drainage systems, Galloway said. Link
The problem is that Amtrak is not sure when the accelerated deterioration in tunnels might force Amtrak to take one of the tunnels out-of-service. There's some uncertainty. Amtrak President Joseph Boardman hopes it will be twenty years but he's said it COULD BE as few as ten.
Thats why I said (hopefully). I didn't mean it as to where the tunnels won't need repair immediately which I know they do.
 #1296974  by 25Hz
 
zerovanity59 wrote:
25Hz wrote:Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.

This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.

It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.

Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?
First of all, Amtrak has stated that they will not close the tunnels until new tunnels are opened. Second, there is one mode of cross Hudson transportation that is not currently at capacity, ferries. The ferry companies will make a killing and then go bankrupt when the tunnels reopen.

So if a large section of bench wall collapses, requiring more than one night of work, they will not shut the tunnel? OKAY.
 #1296977  by 25Hz
 
Defiant wrote:
25Hz wrote:Ok so by the time these tunnels would need to be shut, PATH will have its new signaling system operational, with more trains per hour, and longer train sets on at least one line. That plus directing more traffic to hoboken via SEC and taking midtown direct into hoboken, and you have part of a patch fix while one tunnel is out. You could also increase connections from broad street station in newark via bus and NLR, so people can use that to connect to PATH. Some trains could turn at newark broad, as well.

This will put one hell of a load on PATH, but that system can handle it, i think.

It would be a huge PITA, but not the end of the world. I think PVL customers may end up getting bused over to the hudson line to open up slots at hoboken.

Any of you have thoughts on temporary solutions?


Have you ever been in the rush hour PATH now, when there is a problem in the tunnels and part of the NYP traffic is redirected to Hoboken? It is real madness with long lines to even get on the trains. Besides Hoboken to 33rd st PATH just had a major service suspension stating that they also need major upgrades to their ancient electrical system in the tubes. I am afraid that pretty soon, the transportation system of this state will degenerate to third world conditions...
An unplanned sudden re-direction of trains in the middle of PM peak is not the same as a coordinated, planned multi-modal unified re-outing of trains and ferries known weeks in advance. I was at the climate march sept 21, and we basically "broke" the 8th ave and 7th ave lines, forcing all uptown bound trains to make local stops. It's a thing that does happen now and again due to signal and switch issues, so it wasn't that big a deal, but the trains were massive huge tokyo in winter style pack crush loaded. The clog was cleared in about 30 minutes and normal service resumed about 40 minutes later. NYCT was prepared for this well in advance, so it was run like a military operation where to direct people etc. If there was a planned tunnel outage, i'm sure the same orderly direction of people would take place in the various stations and terminals in NY and NJ as far as passengers and equipment are concerned. These people know their territory and making up a plan only takes some meeting of some minds over a few conferences.

:)
 #1297009  by kilroy
 
The mass transit system survived 09/11 and the loss of PATH to WTC. I realize this is a bigger potential problem but 09/11 was not planned and solutions were worked out quickly while everyone was still worrying about another attack.

Given time to plan, things will work out. Will it be as good as it is now? No but the sky won't fall either.
 #1297010  by ALP46A 4662
 
kilroy wrote:The mass transit system survived 09/11 and the loss of PATH to WTC. I realize this is a bigger potential problem but 09/11 was not planned and solutions were worked out quickly while everyone was still worrying about another attack.

Given time to plan, things will work out. Will it be as good as it is now? No but the sky won't fall either.
Theres a difference though. Even though path service was cut off from the WTC, there was still other means of getting to work by NJ Transit. The big problem here is that, the north river tunnels carry both amtrak and NJ Transit. When the path was cut off by 9/11, that affected path, but this affects both NJ Transit and Amtrak. :(