• MOM Rail Service

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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  by Bracdude181
 
@JohnFromJersey I’m not so sure about that. Even if C&D cleans up and opens the line between Farmingdale and Freehold, NJT would still need at least Class 4 track for any sort of operation down here.

If they are gonna go that far then they may as well rip up the current tracks and start over from scratch. Practically everything would need replacement. New rails, new ties, new tie plates, crossing upgrades/replacements, and that’s not even considering anything else they may do. More than likely they will install catenary wires as well.

NJT will most definitely scare off the freight down here, and it’s not just the Coast Line they want freight off of. I kid you not when I say they’ve complained to Amtrak before about letting Conrail run any freight on the NEC in the daytime lol.

Plus, NJT has lots of restrictions across their network on freight. Weight limits, bans on certain freight car types, small operating windows, PTC/Cab signal requirements, etc. Freight railroads also pay a fee to go down NJT lines. (I think they pay a certain amount for each mile they travel)

Stuff like this is part of the reason why NS pulled out of Dover 2 years ago. They just couldn’t be bothered anymore.
  by ApproachMedium
 
Yall are worried about one freight train a day that comes maybe 3 times a week getting disturbed by passenger service on a single track line that if at best for now, gets done will serve rush hour traffic only most likely. And might not even run on weekends.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:30 pm @JohnFromJersey I’m not so sure about that. Even if C&D cleans up and opens the line between Farmingdale and Freehold, NJT would still need at least Class 4 track for any sort of operation down here.

If they are gonna go that far then they may as well rip up the current tracks and start over from scratch. Practically everything would need replacement. New rails, new ties, new tie plates, crossing upgrades/replacements, and that’s not even considering anything else they may do. More than likely they will install catenary wires as well.

NJT will most definitely scare off the freight down here, and it’s not just the Coast Line they want freight off of. I kid you not when I say they’ve complained to Amtrak before about letting Conrail run any freight on the NEC in the daytime lol.

Plus, NJT has lots of restrictions across their network on freight. Weight limits, bans on certain freight car types, small operating windows, PTC/Cab signal requirements, etc. Freight railroads also pay a fee to go down NJT lines. (I think they pay a certain amount for each mile they travel)

Stuff like this is part of the reason why NS pulled out of Dover 2 years ago. They just couldn’t be bothered anymore.
See the River Line and the Trenton Subdivision. It has worked in other areas, the Coast Line is just something we refer to the most since it's the closest to us and most relevant.
  by pumpers
 
JohnFromJersey wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:34 am See the River Line and the Trenton Subdivision. It has worked in other areas, the Coast Line is just something we refer to the most since it's the closest to us and most relevant.
I'm not sure those are good comparisons, and may actually make the opposite point.

I assume you are referring to the CSX Trenton Sub (from Manville to CP Nice in Philadelphia). If I'm not mistaken, Conrail vs SEPTA interference was such a big problem (and also possibly incompatibility of double stacks with the SEPTA wire), that huge $$ were spent to completely separate the 2 lines, including building new tracks when necessary. Perhaps the only possible issue these days I think is in Woodbourne, where the old PRR freight cutoff (now Conrail or CSX) crosses over the CSX Trenton Sub, and to move from the cutoff to the Trenton sub you have to cross over the 2(?) SEPTA tracks. But apart from that, I think they are two entirely separate railroads, not sharing track or dispatching.

This was mostly if not all before PTC , but it may be they saw the handwriting on the wall and PTC compatibility issues also factored in.
JS

And on the NJT River line (if that's what you are referring to), freight is only allowed to run during midnight to 6 AM or something like that, so that they are never on the tracks when the passenger light rail is.
  by ApproachMedium
 
The separation of the CSX and septa tracks was done in anticpation of PTC installation because CSX did not want to do anything that would be compatible with SEPTA and SEPTA did not want to install i ETMS equipment, anywhere.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
MOM isn't happening anytime soon. Until Gateway Project gets completed, don't get your hopes up of seeing any NJT trains serve Freehold and Lakewood. I think when MOM gets approved, it's best to open up the route south of Matawan that stays closer to Rt. 9 or don't do anything. The route by way of the NEC to Midway Interlocking and then cutting across Central NJ serving Jamesburg-I have mixed feelings. It may be a little slower than the route by way of Matawan and the former CNJ route south of there. However, if that route gets selected, then every train must operate as a super express on the NEC-stopping at Metropark, and New Brunswick after Newark Penn, otherwise the ride will take too long. The route serving Jamesburg would certainly open up doors for commuting from Freehold to New Brunswick.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
njtmnrrbuff wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:40 pm MOM isn't happening anytime soon. Until Gateway Project gets completed, don't get your hopes up of seeing any NJT trains serve Freehold and Lakewood. I think when MOM gets approved, it's best to open up the route south of Matawan that stays closer to Rt. 9 or don't do anything. The route by way of the NEC to Midway Interlocking and then cutting across Central NJ serving Jamesburg-I have mixed feelings. It may be a little slower than the route by way of Matawan and the former CNJ route south of there. However, if that route gets selected, then every train must operate as a super express on the NEC-stopping at Metropark, and New Brunswick after Newark Penn, otherwise the ride will take too long. The route serving Jamesburg would certainly open up doors for commuting from Freehold to New Brunswick.
Realistically speaking, MOM (as it is currently/originally intended) won't gain traction again until well after Gateway is completed, so there probably won't be anything tangible until the 2030's or even 2040's. This could make the line even more difficult to do, since God knows how much worse density and development will get around the ROW. I feel like between now and then, they're going to try at least something, which is why people keep bringing up the LRT option. Even if it's not direct and just ferries people between New Brunswick or Red Bank, and even if it's not used as much as heavy rail, some people will use it and it will take some cars off the road.

The best option, in my opinion, for MOM would be to have a connection to both the NEC at Interlocking and the Coast Line at Matawan, with a terminus in Toms River or Lakewood. The latter would take a lot of pressure off of Bay Head and Point Pleasant, and the former would take pressure off of each other and allow more express and local trains. It would also allow for freight trains to continue on the FIT and SOUS, and even allow for growth since there wouldn't be a bottle neck if there was a fork at Freehold that either went north to Matawan or continued West towards Princeton.
  by ApproachMedium
 
good gods they really need to get over this entire Gateway thing being the crutch for MOM. There are A LOT more places to go within the state of NJ than leaving NJ to go to NYC. When will they realize this? The lower central NJ to upper central NJ ( new Brunswick) commuting pattern alone is enough worth to connect Lakehurst to New Brunswick Via Monmouth jct. If anyone has been in traffic on Rt 18, ever, you can understand this.
  by CJPat
 
@ApproachMedium, everything you said is 100% correct, but unfortunately NJT is focused only on NYC. They don't think anything new has a chance if it doesn't offer a one-seat ride to Manhattan. This explains 30 years of non-accomplishment except for the number of studies "confirming" this thinking as well as the almost absolute disinterest in South Jersey.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
CJPat wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:50 am @ApproachMedium, everything you said is 100% correct, but unfortunately NJT is focused only on NYC. They don't think anything new has a chance if it doesn't offer a one-seat ride to Manhattan. This explains 30 years of non-accomplishment except for the number of studies "confirming" this thinking as well as the almost absolute disinterest in South Jersey.
It would not be a half bad idea to give MOM direct access to south Jersey via Winslow-Lakehurst, but I doubt it would have a lot of ridership and would be pretty expensive.
  by MaRoFu
 
Not to mention a section of the ROW in Elm near Winslow is occupied by someone’s backyard according to Google Maps. And I’m certain that there will be a lot of environmental and local opposition along the route. Direct service to South Jersey via the old Blue Comet route would be nice but with all the factors needed for it to even reopen, it doesn’t seem feasible in the foreseeable future.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
A non-issue I'd think on the backyard. NJDOT owns the ROW and whoever that is, is illegally encroaching on property that is not theirs. They'll never put a railroad through the Pine Barrens but they have hella highways through there
  by Ken W2KB
 
MaRoFu wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:40 pm Not to mention a section of the ROW in Elm near Winslow is occupied by someone’s backyard according to Google Maps.
The encroachment is not an issue. Neither government owned property nor railroads are subject to New Jersey's adverse possession laws and no interest in realty can transfer to the trespasser. The State or a railroad can do what is necessary to eject the trespasser and remove any obstructions without the necessity of a court order or other external authority.
  by Tom V
 
The MOM line has more ridership potential than any other proposed NJ Transit expansion, commuter rail or Light Rail. The region is seeing tremendous growth, Lakewood is the fastest growing town/city in the State with no end of the growth in sight. There is so much potential now with Gateway looking to finally being realized. The following NJ Transit commuter bus routes are the only options for the region to NYC:

139 Lakewood-PABT via Route 9
138
136
135
133
132
131
130
Academy Bus Lakewood-Wall Street

Plus there are NJ Transit buses from Route 9 to Newark, Weehawken, Jersey City and Hoboken.

Express trains can operate:
Lakehurst-Jackson-Lakewood-Howell- Freehold Twp.-Freehold Borough-Manalapan-Jamesburg-South Brunswick-Newark-NY Penn.

Local/Off-peak can operate:
Lakehurst-Jackson-Lakewood-Howell-Freehold Twp.-Freehold Borough-Manalapan-Jamesburg-South Brunswick-North Brunswick-New Brunswick-Metro Park-Newark Airport-Newark Penn-Secaucus Jct.-NY Penn.
  by CJPat
 
TomV,
If they do put this service into operation, I think the stations list will be a little different.

Peak/Express - Lakehurst-Lakewood-Freehold Borough-Jamesburg/Monroe-New Brunswick-Newark-NY Penn (maybe it terminates at Newark w/o a 1 seat ride to NYC).

Local - Lakehurst-Lakewood-Freehold Borough-Jamesburg/Monroe-South Brunswick-Jersey Ave-New Brunswick-Metro Park-Rahway-Elizabeth-Newark Airport-Newark Penn-Secaucus Jct.-NY Penn. (maybe it terminates at Newark w/o a 1 seat ride to NYC).

I don't believe the MOM studies mentioned stations for Jackson, Howell, Manalapan, or Freehold Twp., but I could be wrong.

The basic problem everyone overlooks is that there are (or were) no open slots on the NEC for additional trains. Even with additional tunnels, I am not sure it relieves the burden of how many trains between Amtrak & NJT are operating concurrently.

Big difference back "in the day" was the Pennsy ran faster trains with less headway between trains (and that was with no computers). Todays trains run 15-25 mph slower with significantly larger leeways. Heck, the shipping channels with the ferry boats were far more crowded than the current railroad operations.

I know its all about safety which is supposed to be a good thing, but growing up in the 60's & 70's, I don't recall hearing much about trains running into each other. There were more issues regarding trains and bridges functioning properly. It's funny, with all the speed of computers and better/more reliable communications and better rail engines and cars, we just can't keep up and we keep falling further behind.
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