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  • Modeling a "what-if" Erie Lackawanna

  • Discussion relating to the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, the Erie, and the resulting 1960 merger creating the Erie Lackawanna. Visit the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society at http://www.erielackhs.org/.
Discussion relating to the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, the Erie, and the resulting 1960 merger creating the Erie Lackawanna. Visit the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society at http://www.erielackhs.org/.

Moderator: blockline4180

 #516974  by FFWally
 
A quick synopsis of the "Port City Southern" will give you an idea of my ability to work the E-L into any model RR.

PCS runs from the Steel Mills of the northeast and wanders thru the mountains across the praries and down to the Texas Gulf Coast. The layout is housed in a former Corpus Christi Fire Station and has a 5 scale mile point to point route main line.

I was asked to work on both a color scheme and story for the PCS back in December. Being a graphic artist and unable to give up my love for the E-L, I threw my two favorite roads together and built a back story that enabled the E-L not to fold into Conrail, but instead to merge with the MoPac.

Heres how it works:

The Missouri Pacific was a very profitable road that was actually looking into taking over the Santa Fe in the late 70's before becoming a part of what is now the UP system. After reading about what was going on at the Missouri Pacific during those years, I thought what a great merger they would have made. Essentially a Coast to Coast line, but without the ICC issues of a transcon line. MoPac Intermodal runs across old SP line to the west coast...see where this is going.

MoPac would have benefitted greatly by having direct access to New York and the steel, coal, intermodal traffic that would have directly effected the sun belt areas on MoPac mainline. (Double Stack would come along a few years after the merger in 1976.)

(If youd like specifics on both economic impact to both roads I will be happy to fill you in on the details)

the E-L was not healthy, but if someone along the lines of a MoPac had come along and been able to work with labor, it would have been a logical decision for both roads.

So...the E-L kept it's Identity, much as the D&H had done thru how many incarnations. However the MoPac would have controlling interest in operations and financial decisions, much as she did with the C&EI and the T&P before 1974.
Missouri Pacific would have been strengthened enough to possibly avoid the UP merger that started in 1980. For that matter, an agreement with the SP as a partner in it's intermodal operation from NYC to the Southern California Basin would have SP run thrus as well as MoPac ones running thru the Northeast as well as EL power in Southern California...

There are subtle hints to the Merger in rolling stock and power, but it is limited to a small PCS logo under the cab window.

Now for the part that has riled a few feathers on the mail list.

Changes to the scheme and logoof both lines.
Not wholesale changes, nothing as drastic as making Jenks Blue the primary color on the engines, but the E has been updated as most staid logo's have done over the past 20 years.
ERIE LACKAWANNA painted on the hoods has been tweaked with a new font as well as a stroke around the letters to make the name pop.
essentiall think of the more colorful BNSF schemes with multicolored BNSF on the hoods versus a simple 1 color name.
A color study was done with Erie Lackawanna on Jenks Blue engines in red and white, much as Missouri Pacific was added to UP hoods in the mid 80's. However the scheme was rejected in favor of the updated Lackawanna Freight Scheme formerly used on E and F units.

The Lackawanna Scheme actually bled over onto the Missouri Pacific units, using Eagle Colors instead of GYM.

The thought is to eventually fold everything into the Port City Southern, but I am more inclined to leave the PCS as essentially a holding company that runs both the E-L and MoPac unde rdifferent, but linked names. Blended power will eventually be the rule more than the exception, but for now, the GYM on todays GE and EMD units is beginning to take shape as well as updating an older fleet of rolling stock.

Any thoughts on schemes and intermodal equipment colors?

I will keep y'all updated on progress as the PSC becomes more EL and less Cotton Belt...
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 #517122  by rrfoose
 
Wally,

I like the idea! I've always thought that a northeastern road merging with a gulf coast road would be a powerhouse in todays market. Unfortunately, the railroads didn't see this back in the 60s and 70s.

Looking at strong KCS and CN/IC systems in the Mississippi River valley today, any other competitors besides UP or BNSF would have to be strong. I think picking up the MKT would be ideal - but then again without MP going to UP, and from the sound of things here, maybe not SP or SSW, they will have needed to take over something to satisfy their appetite. Off the top of my head here, I have one thought/concern - after the DRGW takeover of SP/SSW, had UP boughten up WP and gone for DRGW, that would kill friendly connections to the west coast. Santa Fe would only hand off traffic to the EL in Chicago - so you'd have to pick up SP/SSW before DRGW got ahold of it.

I once wanted to model an EL-MKT merged railroad, but the lack of connections between Kansas City and St Louis (on top of the fact that EL only went to Chicago), wouldn't allow this to happen. Somehow, EL would need access to St Louis to to meet up with MP. Turning in Chicago to head south on the C&EI would be a bottle-neck. Even Conrail, with it's great connections to St. Louis through Indianapolis, didn't have any friendly connections to MKT. It did with MP though, and I think I may remember hearing of merger/buyout talks about the time Conrail went public back in the 80s.

Either way, a gulf coast to northeast coast direct haul would be great for chemical traffic today - unfortunately going way up north before turning east makes for a long route, and that's why most of this is handed off to NS and CSX for a more direct run to New Jersey.

Keep us posted on your continuing developments.

Chase Z.

 #517150  by FFWally
 
Ahhh...the M-K-T.

Actually the M-K-T was a part of the back story, having merged into MoPac in the late 80's. Wabash would make a nice segway line and as they were a part of the N&W system leased thru the PRR, youd have a link.

Historically the MoPac was looking to merge with several Class 1's before the merger craze started the Mega Class 1's we have today.

A short list:

Penn Central late 196o's
MoPac/ATSF merging with Rock Island 1963
Illinois Central before C&EI deal. early 1960's
Southern Late 1970's

***D&RGW***MoPac owned a large share of this railroad and shared trackage rights. Another idea thrown around was a Rio Grande-MP-Western Pacific merger as a defense against the UP-Rock Island proposal.(From Screaming Eagles website)

 #517163  by rrfoose
 
Wabash has to be one of the most valuable pieces of railroad that has yet to see it's full utilization. Being as though it's the only route that really crosses the east-west divide of railroads, that could have given any rail line that bought it (which obviously was NW) a direct route to railroads on the other half of the continent without passing through Chicago, STL, or Memphis. (Although as a side-note, the Meridian line that connects KCS to NS could be a huge boomer in the future). Wabash was nicely complimented by NKP, as it allowed the old, narrow gauge line of NKP to St. Louis to be abandoned. It also provided access to Buffalo and the eastern trunk lines. N&W made a hell of a purchase with these two roads. If the Buffalo gateway hadn't collapsed for interchange traffic like it did (due to bankrupt roads folding into Conrail), it would be a huge interchange point today - on the edge of the "firewall" for profitable and not-profitable roads.

So many things could have happened out there to make railroading different (and probably more interesting) than it is today....but they didn't, so that's why we can dream here.

About the only other possibility for expanding a midwestern road into the northeast would be if NS had bought CR in the 80s when it went public. Guilford and PLE were supposed to get a lot of trackage, but the gov't didn't think they could be competitive. It wouldn't have taken long for a class 1 to cherry-pick those roads for access to the northeast, as they would have needed major inflows of cash to be sustainable and brought back to higher-speed standards.

 #517189  by FFWally
 
The L&N would be another intriguing road to tie in the lines. Became part of the Family Lines in 82, well after it could have been tied together with EL and MP. Not sure about MKT, but would sure have moved traffic south of Chicago on Intermodal runs.

 #517193  by rrfoose
 
FFWally wrote:The L&N would be another intriguing road to tie in the lines. Became part of the Family Lines in 82, well after it could have been tied together with EL and MP. Not sure about MKT, but would sure have moved traffic south of Chicago on Intermodal runs.
GM&O would have been a nice addition for it's access to Chicago from the Kansas City and St Louis gateways. Not need for much of it south of Illinois (as IC found out), other than access to the Port of Mobile. Not sure how this line would have panned out if owned by someone other than IC. I guess it was quite hilly and round-about? But GMO ran hot intermodel south of Chicago on it's ex-Alton lines.

 #517250  by FFWally
 
rrfoose wrote:
FFWally wrote:The L&N would be another intriguing road to tie in the lines. Became part of the Family Lines in 82, well after it could have been tied together with EL and MP. Not sure about MKT, but would sure have moved traffic south of Chicago on Intermodal runs.
GM&O would have been a nice addition for it's access to Chicago from the Kansas City and St Louis gateways. Not need for much of it south of Illinois (as IC found out), other than access to the Port of Mobile. Not sure how this line would have panned out if owned by someone other than IC. I guess it was quite hilly and round-about? But GMO ran hot intermodel south of Chicago on it's ex-Alton lines.
With the MoPaccovering the southern end of the system, I am thinking L&N is a perfect fit. Lots of photos available of L&N power running on the MP, not to mention the split of C&EI between the roads.

Not even much of a scheme change from L&N to EL, just add a stripe and a little more yellow on the nose.