MNRR Bilevel/Double Decker Coaches Proposal

DutchRailnut wrote: The NJT cars seat 140 in 2x2 seating but seat 175 in 5x3 seating compared to around 100 in a M-7

5 x 3 seating? You mean 2 x 3 right?

Well that would certainly solve the capacity issue in the tunnel!

Ridgefielder wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:Again there is no plans to make this a AC/DC deal, CDOT has their own fleet of M-8's and making the power cars AC/DC would only make you drag an unneccesary 50 tons around.

So they really are looking to buy an updated version of these: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc132.jpg ?

OH my gosh - my dad had one of those in O guage when he was a kid (note he was born in 1915)....

If they do that mybe they'll bring back the American Flyer (Osgood Bradley) cars too? LOLZ

-Hi Dutch. You raised a very interesting point, when you mentioned that Metro North had actually tested the LIRR new Bi-levels in the Park Avenue Tunnel. I may have missed something, but I don't recall previous discussion of these trials. Presumably, then the overhead would be ok for doubledeckers. You do mention trouble with curves on the two outside tracks. Any more detail?
-what would need to be done for Metro North to run LIRR type doubledeckers into GCT via the Park Avenue tunnel? If that is possible, then the idea sounds like a practical scheme. I suppose we could discount some of the earlier comments in this thread, including my own.
-Push-pull or MU?

-in other words, how could MN make it work?

Roger

Do any bilevel third-rail based MUs currently exist?

First , they won't be MU, they will be DC locomotive hauled coaches.
No the Bi levels won't be close to LIRR double deckers .
MNCR will need to design Double deckers, with a much bigger tapper at top deck so the cars will fit on track 3/4 in Park avenue tunnel as stated in Article.

Yes we tested the LIRR FL-9ac's including a pair of C1's in and out of GCT in 1990's, they could not travel on track 3/4 only the two center tracks.
a Commuter Bi-level like NJT or the VRE/MARC cars is only about same height as a Genesis.
The LIRR C1 and C3 double deckers clear third rail right.
and they clear overheadwire in NYP, but MNCR is not designing these cars for New Haven line so that is irrelevant.

-Thanks, Dutch.

-of course this would be --- way in the future,--- but if Metro North is going to take the trouble to design double deckers, it might be worth insuring catenary clearances as well, In Case some future CDOT version is desired. Both CDOT and Metro North will have following generations of commuter growth to handle. CDOT might also find a use for double deckers on Shore Line East or proposed New Haven to Hartford lines. it would be useful if plans and a manufacturer already existed.

Roger

your getting into dream mode again.
A double decker who is no higher than a Genesis will clear catenary without any problems, after all the Genesis does on all those current routes.
As for CDOT and SLE, they could not even secure funding for last 80 M-8 cars and you worry about new cars ??????????
what you smoking boy ?
For Springfield Service CDOT will have use of at least 33 Mafersa cars just recently rebuild and good for another 20 or 25 years.

I just cannot wait until the Genesis and shoreliner fleet is done and the MTA would have to work with CDOT to get funding for the new fleet.
Know that is a longggggggggg way down the road (probably another decade to half for early planning), but looking at CDOT history who knows.

.....Ah, Dutch. No smoke around here.
-when you think planning, for something as complex as a publicly owned railroad, what unit of time should you be thinking in? I would suggest anything that will happen, from idea to designing to approvals to budgets to environmental and engineering studies, to public hearings, to delays, to final budgets, to contracts, to testing and than finally, to be put in use....--- If you started right now, 10 years is a reasonable figure. If NOW=10, what would thinking about the next step be? FUTURE=20 Let us forego the instant coffee, "we can't do it right now!" approach, take the long view.
-it is not so unreasonable to think about things that might happen in 20 years. In institutional terms, it is right around the corner. It's when we don't think about things that may be happening in 20 years that we are being unreasonable.

Best wishes, and as always, thanks for your information.

Roger

Not to really change topics here so i will make it short. I think what Dutch is getting at is CDOT, MNRR, and MTA in general just doesn't have the money to think so far into the future. AS he stated, CDOT and SLE couldn't even find the money to order the last 80 M8 cars, which I predict will eventually need. I do understand where you're coming from with thinking ahead but when people are wondering if they'll have a job next year and service is being due to a "lack of money", I think they realized that they have a problem. It might take a few years until they will be able to think 20 years ahead.

metrony wrote:
I just cannot wait until the Genesis and shoreliner fleet is done and the MTA would have to work with CDOT to get funding for the new fleet.
Know that is a longggggggggg way down the road (probably another decade to half for early planning), but looking at CDOT history who knows.

Whats wrong with the shoreliner fleet? Probably of the most reliable fleet we have on the RR. Many of those cars have been refurbed and ready to offer at least 15 more years of service.

The Shoreliners are the best to work and ride the best. Coming from someone who deals with them on a regular basis.

Nothing wrong with them. Personality I find the seats much much more conformable than the M7a's and no automated announcements!
I rode the NJ Transit bi-levels and I LOVED them. Nice bigger windows, tons of more aisle and foot space and best of all no middle seat.

The only thing I probably dislike about the shoreliners is the smaller windows compared to the M7a.

cause their older cars, new cars have to have windows at least 2 foot high for stretcher evacuations.
but the shoreliners after the rebuild are good for another 20 years.

Steamboat Willie wrote:The Shoreliners are the best to work and ride the best. Coming from someone who deals with them on a regular basis.

I agree, 1560 is much better when it runs with the bomb set then when its an MU. Plus, their much more reliable then the MU sets as well.