Missouri Amtrak Service

StLouSteve wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:59 am I'm here in MO. The trains are used and supported although Covid has had an impact.

West side to east side… do we have an idea of max passengers on board in 2019? I ask because I wonder if a diesel and 8 cars are really the most effective transport along US50 KC-StL?

Sorry, but it looks like a losing proposition even when it was funded.

Amtrak intentionally makes it difficult, but here's 2013 to 2021 (since the year ends 9/30, 2022 is only six months in progress, so it's not meaningful just yet)
You can't ignore that ridership was already shrinking by 25% from 2013 to 2019... and FY2019 ended three months before anyone had heard of COVID.

Further... you can't blame Jefferson City - MO had a Democrat Governor 2009 to 2017, and the balance of power in the state Senate hasn't really changed from 2009 to 2021 (23R/11D to 24R/10D). It's the state House where the most visible changes have happened (89R/74D to 114R/49D).

With the metro areas shrinking while the rest of the state grows, that shift from almost a 50/50 to a 70/30 House is not exactly surprising as the suburbs and rural areas tend to vote more conservative... Growth in the metro area was essentially flat 2010 to 2020, even though the state's population as a whole grew by around 3%. Looking at 2021 data, STL is actually in a population winter i.e. a birth+inmigration rate lower than the death+outmigration rate.

All that said.... if the train benefits STL and KCI primarily, with a declining population in both there's not as much sentiment or even reason to keep pouring good money after bad.

Did they shorten the trains in 2019? Losing a car or two would explain why load factor jumped even though the trend of declining ridership from previous years continued...

Amtrak service is like a utility--we don't eliminate our fire department just because we go a year without a major fire--a full train is not needed to show the service is useful.

In MO, ridership has been down somewhat due to lazy timekeeping, way too frequent cancellations due to "weather," bus substitutions due to derailments and track work, plus the loss of a train due to covid and funding. All this has had an impact. Overall, though I think support for the trains remains strong and with better marketing and reliable service, ridership would bounce right back.

In addition, it is not just a benefit to STL and KC, the end point cities but is used by folks throughout the state.

Having the new locomotives and (hopefully soon) new cars should also help.

And yet many in St Louis want to get rid of its police department...

You don't build two firehouses when one suffices and people are moving away from the town, nor do you buy a tower ladder truck for a community of single wides and ranch homes.

At the distances and volumes involved, rail simply isn't the most efficient form of transportation.

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Uh oh...topic drift:

>>>"And yet many in St Louis want to get rid of its police department..."

Not really, we just want to reform the city police so that they are not planting evidence, arresting and brutalizing innocent protestors, killing fellow officers while on duty and generally not breaking the laws. (The elimination of this behavior would save us considerable $$ in settlements and litigation).

"You don't build two firehouses when one suffices and people are moving away from the town, nor do you buy a tower ladder truck for a community of single wides and ranch homes."

Maybe, but here the two firehouses have already been built and in operation since before Amtrak so we are talking about permanently closing one and we all know it is much harder to rebuild after it is gone.

"At the distances and volumes involved, rail simply isn't the most efficient form of transportation."

I beg to differ: few options remain for cross MO travel: Megabus and Greyhound are greatly reduced or gone, nonstop airline service is almost nil now--plus KC's airport is not convenient and Highway 70 is only available to those with their own cars--plus one way car rental has become prohibitively expensive. 70 in MO which is part of the first Interstate ever built, is in need of complete rebuilding and given how close the opposing lanes are to each other with nothing but a cable divider in spots, has many accidents.

We also haven't spoken about the green factor, which should be a consideration in our analysis given our climate crisis and Amtrak fares well there too.

It's great that you want all that stuff, but who's gonna pay for it?

MO isn't like NY or CA and filled with a bunch of bankers, actors, old money and trust fund types.

It's filled mostly with middle class and blue collar workers who earned what they have the hard way, and aren't quite as inclined to simply give that away to support an ideology.

At some point common good and common sense need to intersect.

Subsidized coach bus service 2 or 3 times daily between all of those same points currently served by Amtrak would be far more efficient and affordable.

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While I am a supporter of passenger rail service (and am an advocate for rail service in my state) and I respectively disagree with Mr. Olesen's points on passenger rail service in principle - at the end of the day - as a 209 service this is up to the state. If they don't want the service - they don't want the service. Ultimately it's up to the rail advocacy community in Missouri to try to convince their state house and to encourage voters who may be unhappy with this cut to let their state reps and senators know if they want to reverse it (and I certainly offer them my moral support in this effort). But at the end of the day if the voters aren't happy they'll let their representation know either verbally or at the ballot box. If they don't and most voters are happy with (or indifferent) to this cut then well the state has made up its mind.

StLouSteve wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:46 am Highway 70 in MO which is part of the first Interstate ever built, is in need of complete rebuilding.

I recall MODOT was considering a toll pilot for I-70 some years ago.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:31 pm

StLouSteve wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:46 am Highway 70 in MO which is part of the first Interstate ever built, is in need of complete rebuilding.

I recall MODOT was considering a toll pilot for I-70 some years ago.

You can't toll an existing interstate per Federal law (although Trump tried to change that and Pelosi wanted nothing to do with it).

Here are the situations where tolling is allowed:

1) Tolling is allowed on newly constructed Interstate System highways, bridges, and tunnels (not reconstructed)
2) Existing bridges and tunnels on the Interstate System may be converted to toll facilities if reconstructed or replaced (as has been done in Louisville, KY and elsewhere)
3) Added lane capacity on existing Interstate System highways may be tolled (as has been done in Texas)
4) The number of toll-free lanes on existing Interstate System surface routes must be maintained if toll lanes are added

StLouSteve wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:46 am We also haven't spoken about the green factor, which should be a consideration in our analysis given our climate crisis and Amtrak fares well there too.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a battery or LNG powered intercity bus pilot....

LNG has 600 mile range: https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/th ... n-bologna/

Battery... still only 200 mile range: https://www.electrive.com/2021/05/05/no ... ity-coach/

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:19 am Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a battery or LNG powered intercity bus pilot....

LNG has 600 mile range: https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/th ... n-bologna/

Battery... still only 200 mile range: https://www.electrive.com/2021/05/05/no ... ity-coach/

Funny story. I got a call from an advocacy group wanting my support on swapping out all diesel buses for electric. So I asked them: Did you contact Baltimore DOT about their experience yet?

Their response? "What?"

I ask again: Did you contact Baltimore Department of Transportation about their experience with electric buses on the Charm City Circulator?

Their response? "Um... no, we haven't."

My response: You want me to support something that you haven't done your homework on? Contact Baltimore DOT on how *BAD* electric buses were for the Circulator, and get back to me when you're done that. You will be graded.

(As an aside, these were electrics w/diesel generators, ie, DMUs on rubber tires and the ability to *steer*, but given Baltimore's hilly terrain and wildly variable weather? Yeeeaaaaaahhhhhh.... they didn't last long)

Now LNG commuter tour buses, between St Louis and Kansas City? Yeah, I can see them taking a trip and back on a "tank".

Mind you, those were an earlier generation of electric buses from a vendor who gave up. They made the mistake of bleeding edge technology, without really taking in account requirements.
Also see, the ABQ BYD battery buses for a BRT route that couldn't meet the range requirements that trolley buses (like Boston just retired )would have met .

LNG and CNG are a lot more proven. Plus they can often be repaired at a facility that handles diesel engines. No special tooling aside from the fuel supply.

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Still fossil fueled.

Is there a minimum axle requirements on this line?

How is battery or electric going to fix their $2.9M shortfall?

FEC tested some type of CNG or LNG engine in freight service. Apparently conversion is not that hard, but fuel is in tanks in a tender. Unclear what the results were.

We should be focusing on costs, energy efficiency, energy independence, cartel busting, antitrust, russia-busting and china-busting. Maybe we should be thinking about coal-burning steam engines, although coal fumes are nasty.