MetroNorth Fantasy System

BiggAW wrote: The study seemed to favor DMU's, even though they are totally unproven, and there wouldn't be any used ones available.

There's thousands of DMUs in use around the world, and quite a number of them in use in the US. The new ones in use in Southern NJ, etc, are about as reliable as you get for a railcar.

It cited noise and vibration as a big problem with locomotives.

Poor designs or antiques, maybe. NJT's PL-42s aren't very loud at all.

On a side note, GE will be coming out with hybrid diesels that basically work sort of like a Prius with the dynamic braking energy stored for use during acceleration, and these could solve some of the efficiency and noise problems that plague the current generation of big diesels, and would likely prove perfect for commuter rail.

There's no efficiency problem with current diesels, it's just you lose out when you have 300,000 lbs and 3x 100,000 railcars, vs 3 DMUs. And there's plenty of quiet diesels out there - as hated as the PL-42s are, they are a fairly quiet unit...

And a hybrid? Talk about unproven technology - nobody's ever run one in service...

Although the report didn't explicitly say so, acceleration out of stations like Wallingford would probably be significantly impacted if the current GP-40's or P40's were used on this service because of their noise and vibration profile.

About the only way to get a P40 to accelerate fast is to toss it off a cliff, and even then it'd likely hover a few seconds before starting to slowly fall

Seriously though, it's not an issue of the locomotives, it's a simple issue of power to weight ratio. DMUs and EMUs have a far better one, and that means they're faster.

Realistically, I think everyone's counting chickens before they hatch - and despite all this talk of big stimulus, it boils down to a simple reality: The government doesn't have any money to spend in the first place, and everyone wats their piece anyway.

I've renamed the topic accordingly, no disrespect meant to the original poster. I don't think this was his intent. We've gone so far afield here, my head is spinning. As long as we're in the realm of pure fantasy, I promise not to criticize any of the posts in here.

Otto, Please. If the Springfield line was used for commuter service, it needs equipment. It's not electrified, so it has to be some sort of diesel diesel-electric or diesel-electric-hybrid. If they were to buy new gear for the Springfield line, that would cost $$$. If they were to buy electric gear for the SLE and move most of the SLE gear to the Springfield line, that would lower the operating costs of the SLE, and still cost $$$. Which one makes more sense? Obviously the electric gear. Plus, you change it now that we are talking about a real (as in really proposed) project that people really are trying to make "shovel ready"?

Anyways,

Nasadowsk,

The report talked about how DMUs in the US have tougher FRA crash standards than those around the world. What are the DMU's in use in Southern NJ?

Ok, its just physics getting us there with the weight.

It's partially true that they hybrids are unproven. They have never been used in mainline service, but have seen extensive slower speed stop-and-go in yard and local switching work (green goats), and worked well for that. I hope they can scale up speed wise, as they would be perfect for commuter service.

haha on the P40's. Why are they so bad. Is is just a lack of a turbocharger? Are the P32s better, as those were designed in part for commuter service?

Yeah, uh, my california zephyr was late last week, like really late. Can we fire the Amtrak administration and hire MN's brass to all work part time at Amtrak, in kind of a bifurcated management structure, that maybe would buy DMU's for the California Zephyr. And then we can make them conversion ready to become straight EMU's if the route to the Bay Area is electrified, which would be a good idea because then the existing CZ superliners would be totally useful to re-equip the eastern half of the Sunset?

I really like that idea, because then it frees up equipment P42's to pull thru-service from Springfield to Montauk.

Of course, MN food service is typically less-than-diner-lite, so where does that leave you for 48 hour rides...

[/sarcasm]

Tadman wrote: bifurcated

"Bifurcate" means to divide into two branches or forks. I looked it up.

Isn't this fantasy island? Anyway, the combined management would spend mornings dealing with one railroad and afternoons with the other, hence the bifurcated mission of MNCR management. Who am I and what am I doing here?

I'm just funning, I hope everybody got a laugh. I like to throw "bifurcate" into the conversation occasionally - it's a fun word. Thanks for your good humor, Otto.

BiggAW wrote: The report talked about how DMUs in the US have tougher FRA crash standards than those around the world.

Well, that's a regulatory issue, not one of DMUs working or not.

What are the DMU's in use in Southern NJ?

Stadler GTW 2/6s, on a waiver from the FRA (time separation).

It's partially true that they hybrids are unproven. They have never been used in mainline service, but have seen extensive slower speed stop-and-go in yard and local switching work (green goats), and worked well for that. I hope they can scale up speed wise, as they would be perfect for commuter service.

The green goat was a total failure. Then again, Railpower at the time was also predicting that gas turbines would have negative energy use by 2020, so...

haha on the P40's. Why are they so bad. Is is just a lack of a turbocharger? Are the P32s better, as those were designed in part for commuter service?

It's not lack of a turbo, it's more EPA than anything. They're not _that_ bad, but GEs are, justified or not, known for being slow loaders.

Nasadowsk wrote: Well, that's a regulatory issue, not one of DMUs working or not.

I should say, "Working in the US" as if they are on the US rail system, they have to meet FRA standards, and not many do, since most are used in Europe.

Stadler GTW 2/6s, on a waiver from the FRA (time separation).

Those are neat, but they wouldn't work on the Springfield line, as Amtrak has to run simultaneously with heavy rail equipment.

The green goat was a total failure. Then again, Railpower at the time was also predicting that gas turbines would have negative energy use by 2020, so...

How was it a failure? I have heard that they were quite successful in reducing pollution around freight yards, which was at dangerously high levels in some parts of California and Texas. The concept is excellent, its just a matter of whether the things will last very long running dozens of stops and starts a day.

It's not lack of a turbo, it's more EPA than anything. They're not _that_ bad, but GEs are, justified or not, known for being slow loaders.

That's pretty sad if EPA regulations hurt their performance, as they are dirty locomotives as it is. When they accelerate, they emit quite a bit of black smoke.

-Otto: "Fantasy Island" indeed! Perhaps this requires a new forum, FIRR; you could transfer a lot of things there.

-when I innocently started this thread, I was just wondering if our Metro North had any "shovel ready" projects which might be realized under verious proposed stimuli programs. I am not sure our Grand Discussion identified many. Perhaps there aren't any.

-by "shovel ready" I was referring to dirt, rather than .....

-the opportunites may all be gone by the time the planning, fighting and reviewing process is over.

Roger

And I renamed it again. I came across this map (man, I love maps) and thought this could generate some discussion in this old topic.

The "Wilbur Cross Parkway" station would be under the Sikorsky Bridge, inaccessible.

Seeing the Mill Plain station reminds that the depot is at DRM under restoration. It had been suggested
previously on this site that DRM could run the RDC as a shuttle as far as the Fair Grounds (now the mall),
but their non-compliant fleet and HRRC issues prevent this.

That would be a nice ride. One would think that HRRC would be happy to rid itself of the line west since it's OOS with no customers. CTDOT should buy it, and the almost-officially-abandoned stretch in NYS up to Dykemans.

That was I that suggested the RDC shuttle. I think if CT DoT ever took hold of that stretch of the line it could give the museum a chance to run some excursions beyond their yard runs, drawing in more visitors.

Hi Jeff,

Do you have a high-resolution version of this map anywhere?

Unfortunately not.