Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

DutchRailnut wrote:There is a damned good reason the soon 500 car M-8's got third rail gear compatible with LIRR third rail.
Amtrak has not been charging fair amount for Catenary use, the LIRR is in charge of their power and a MTA company.

Is there any good source that shows that Amtrak is actually "profiteering" on power sold to the MTA or the other commuter agencies? They all seem to complain (Maryland is kind of going diesel, Massachusetts does not want to even consider it citing those costs), but is it possible that Amtrak costs are just too high because Amtrak is maintaining an old 25Hz system for which all parts are custom? This is might not apply north of New Haven where the system is new, but south of NYP everything might cost more for a good reason.

Since you have all answers, please explain: MBTA wants nothing to do with Electric operation.
SLE is running diesel and not much in hurry to get Amtrak to approve M-8's
MARC rather runs diesels cause they got hosed on Electrics.

and meanwhile MN/LIRR get cheapest power from NY power authority, so why would they use Amtrak catenary ??? it would be plain stupidity.

DutchRailnut wrote:Since you have all answers, please explain: MBTA wants nothing to do with Electric operation...

If I have offended you somehow, I am sorry. I do not have the answers, which is why I asked the question if we know for a fact that Amtrak is really profiteering on the power sold or if it is just trying to cover its high costs. Doesn't Amtrak have its own generation station plus a bunch of converters for the 25Hz? All high power equipment is custom ordered, but non-standard 25Hz is even more special. Maybe they just have high costs and need to pass it to the customer. I just do not know and that is why I was asking. As a quasi-government entity, Amtrak is not exactly the place to find cost efficiency on par with the private sector.

The ex-PRR grid ends at CP Gate,from CP Gate to East of East Haven Station is the ex NH power grid that is under MN/ConnDOT control
From East Haven to Boston is Amtrak's 25kv 60hz power grid.
Even though the Hellgate route is Amtrak's it is tied into the MN grid,not the ex PRR grid the West Farms substation near Van Nest section
of the Bronx is shared with MN.
As this is commercial supplied power,the only people making $$$ off of power usage is Con-ED and the power companies in Conn.
All of the 3rd rail power in NY Penn to Harold is from Con-Ed.Amtrak and MN,with LIRR pay Con-Ed.
End of power story!

En ConEd is providing that power from NY state Power authority at a highly discounted rate .

EuroStar wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:Since you have all answers, please explain: MBTA wants nothing to do with Electric operation...

If I have offended you somehow, I am sorry. I do not have the answers, p

Don’t worry about Dutch, if there’s ever a guy that thinks he has all the answers, it’s the retired Dutchman. He’s quick to criticize and slow to close his mouth.

The MTA announced on Feb. 11 a shortlist of contractors who they believe are qualified to build the Metro-North Penn Access Project.

The Metro-North Penn Access Project aims to introduce Metro-North service into New York’s Penn Station, creating a second route for Metro-North to reach Manhattan and providing a direct, one-seat ride to the west side of Manhattan for riders in Connecticut, Westchester, and the Bronx. The plan will also bring four new fully accessible stations in the east Bronx.

The project is expected to finish by 2023.

“This project is transformative for people who want to get from the East Bronx and Westchester to the West Side of Midtown Manhattan – likewise for those who want to access the East Bronx and job centers in Westchester and Connecticut,” said MTA Chief Development Officer Janno Lieber. “The new MTA Construction & Development organization is moving quickly to execute the new $51.5 billion 2020-24 Capital Program, and encouraging contractors to compete and bring us innovative strategies to deliver projects faster, better and cheaper.”

https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-announ ... s-project/

It's two months into 2020, they haven't actually hired the contractors yet, and the project is going to be completed by 2023? In other words, in less than 35 months? This is the MTA we're talking about, not Norfolk Southern. That timeline seems optimistic to the point of delusion.

2023 is too optimistic. There is a lot that has to be done besides adding the new MNR Stations in the East Bronx. Track capacity along the Hellgate Line is supposed to expand to four tracks. Pelham Bay Bridge is supposed to get replaced. I don't know what will happen to the Bronx River Bridge but I can imagine that that's due for a replacement. I think the signaling system will have to be replaced on the Hellgate Line.

As was noted in other threads,Penn is at 200% capy,when ESA goes online,it might be at150 % capy
There are some people that want a 2 track Subway Line over Hellgate,killing the CSX Bay Ridge Secondary,leaving 2 tracks for Amtrak,
with CSX as a tenant on them,along with the return of Sunnyside Jct at the west end of Hellgate.

People can ask for whatever they want. That does not mean it is going to happen. At this point there is no meaningful way to build a Sunnyside Jct with both MNRR and LIRR trains stopping at it. The possible space for it was gobbled up by ESA, the Westbound bypass and the Eastbound reroute. A station just for MNRR makes no sense due to expected low ridership compared congestion penalty caused by stopping at the station. Subway over Hellgate is not going to happen either. Standard subway equipment is not FRA compliant and cannot run next to FRA compliant railroad unless proper spacial separation is provided for. Any situation in which CSX or Amtrak engine comes in contact with standard subway cars (read a derailment/crash of some sort) will make pancakes of said subway cars with the resulting loss of many lives. That is the reason why PATH is FRA regulated and its equipment complies with the more stringent FRA standards. The TriboroRX line could in theory be run with FRA compliant equipment, but then all the economies of scale by being compatible with the subway are gone.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:48 pm Track capacity along the Hellgate Line is supposed to expand to four tracks.

Never heard of 4 passenger tracks anywhere along the line. Three tracks is all that is contemplated at this point and the Hellgate remains at two passenger tracks.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:48 pm Pelham Bay Bridge is supposed to get replaced. I don't know what will happen to the Bronx River Bridge but I can imagine that that's due for a replacement.

Current plans call for no bridge replacements. Amtrak wanted one, but Cuomo said no and Amtrak folded.

Note that the Draft Environmental Assessment is still not out.

When the Hellgate route(NY connecting RR),it was 4 tracks to Penn station and Bay Ridge float yard in Brooklyn,
giving National Network access to NYCTA's South Brooklyn Ry by interchange instead of Float Barge interchange only.
The wire was on the NH grid from the beginning to Harold and Bay Ridge.
Sunnyside Jct was where the Bay Ridge Freight line split from the mainlines to Penn.

IF Tri-Boro RX is built over the Hellgate bridge,you lose 2 tracks to Subway requirements and fencing,
leaving 2 tracks for Amtrak,CSX and P&W,and recreating Sunnyside Jct to reach Fremont/Fresh Pond and the SOB,NJNY at
Bay Ridge.
When the LIRR 3rd Rail is extended from CP gate and the Phase Break between the MN and Amtrak Grids.
Sunnyside Jct will add some complexity tothat 3rd rail install.

Trains.com Newswire

...
New York — MTA Penn Station Access — Hell Gate Line Catenary System Replacement (Opportunity Zone)
Up to $30,000,000
NY Metropolitan Transportation Authority

Replaces 210 catenary structures on the Amtrak-owned Hell Gate Line between Penn Station, New York and New Rochelle, New York. The structures were installed in the 1910s, have exceeded their useful life, and are prone to component failures related to age and fatigue. The project is part of the broader Penn Station Access project that would provide one-seat commuter rail passenger service to Penn Station New York (PSNY) for MTA Metro-North Railroad's New Haven Line riders. The Hell Gate Line is used by Amtrak’s NEC services and freight, and the project will increase reliability and resilience of the electrical traction system for the current intercity passenger rail services. Replacing the catenary structures will also reduce risks of future structural failures that would cause passenger delays.
...

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:55 am Trains.com Newswire

...
New York — MTA Penn Station Access — Hell Gate Line Catenary System Replacement (Opportunity Zone)
Up to $30,000,000
NY Metropolitan Transportation Authority

Replaces 210 catenary structures on the Amtrak-owned Hell Gate Line between Penn Station, New York and New Rochelle, New York. The structures were installed in the 1910s, have exceeded their useful life, and are prone to component failures related to age and fatigue. The project is part of the broader Penn Station Access project that would provide one-seat commuter rail passenger service to Penn Station New York (PSNY) for MTA Metro-North Railroad's New Haven Line riders. The Hell Gate Line is used by Amtrak’s NEC services and freight, and the project will increase reliability and resilience of the electrical traction system for the current intercity passenger rail services. Replacing the catenary structures will also reduce risks of future structural failures that would cause passenger delays.
...

How about electrifying the 3rd track and restoring the fourth? That will be especially useful for Penn Station Access when a large amount of Metro North trains will use that line along with Amtrak between New Rochelle to Hell Gate.

Need to replace P Bay moveable Bridge,with a 3-4 track bridge,3rd track over Hellgate is CSX owned Bay Ridge Secondary track,starts at Market Tower,ends at Fremont/Fresh Pond(LIRR/NY&A).
4th track over the Hellgate Bridge was Abandoned in place by PC-useless.. Sunnyside Jct was torn out ages ago by PC
Traffic into Penn from MN wont add that much traffic.