Metro North In-Cab Signalling

Hi!

My first post on the forums here so please be gentle

I'm trying to create a simulation of the metro north area and how this is then driven from a variety of trains such as SD40-2, ACS-64, M8, AEM-7 and Acela.

I'm going to use some acronyms like ACSES that I barely understand and quite possibly am using in entirely the wrong context, I welcome correction but would definitely appreciate it if you could gather what I'm meaning and just translate in your head so that what i'm saying makes sense and then see if you can help shed any light on this topic for me.

I've read a number of threads on here that discuss various aspects of the in-cab signalling and it's been a tremendous help in getting started, i've pretty much got an understanding of the track-based infrastructure now but what i'm really lacking information on is the driver experience - i.e. for each of the types of loco's, what they see in the cab in what conditions, how they react to it and so forth.

Let me give examples to clarify.

Let's take a simple situation -

My Train | [N] | [L] | [M] | [R] | [R] | Other Train

That's my understanding of how this particular situation might play out. Let's assume "Other Train" is stationary, and that "My Train" is an M8 and shows the NLMR lamps vertically as per this photo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ol_Cab.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Note - i'm assuming that the right hand bank of lamps aren't actually used currently based on what i've read here and other places so far?]

My understanding also is that the system is basically fixed blocks, which are marked out by grids between the rails, these grids then send the appropriate signalling information to be displayed on the in-cab displays.

So...

1. I'm driving "my train" along the rails, I go over a grid and remain at "N" - nothing happens in the cab, no audible alarms or anything, we just keep trucking along.

2. I drive over the next grid and the "L" lamp comes on - an audible alarm sounds that I must acknowledge in the cab. Failure to ack the alarm in (??) seconds results in brake application. Once acknowledged, I then have (??) seconds to be down to the appropriate speed for the L (I have them written down somewhere on my desk at work!).

3. I progress slowing down, I eventually get to a grid that sets me to "R" and after acknowledging, I have (??) seconds to slow to 15km/h and must now be driving on visual confirmation of clear line ahead.

4. When I go over the next (R) I have no visual or audible indication in the cab at all and continue as before driving to sight before seeing the train sat stationary so I come to a halt a little way behind it.

Other than the (??) bits that I don't know - have I got the essence of this?

This leads on to some other questions...

1. If I'm mid-way through the [M] section, running at the max speed for M (30?) and the train in front moves off (or a switch changes to give me a clear path) do I get the increased speed immediately? Or at the next grid? We have a system here (and in Europe) called TVM430 - the way that works is that you can expect to only get a reduction at the start of the block marker, but you can get an increase anywhere.

2. How does the driver know where these blocks are? Do they just know from experience? Do they not really care because it's irrelevant? Or are there some indications of some sort?

I'm aware there are also wayside signals which operate as red/red for STOP, flashing green for in-cab, and alternating red/red and green for absolute block (permission to pass this signal but be able to stop at the next one). Assuming nothing massively wrong so far, i'm fairly happy that I get how these work too - the crux of the problem really is where there are no visible signals and how things then work for the driver.

Ok, so the M8 was the "easy" example. Let's move on to the ACS-64:

http://dizfanatic.com/Trains_Amtrak_Sei ... _Cab-1.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/vJMhKgEnnNc/maxresdefault.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So in this cab which I think is running their test mode, the in-cab signalling display seems to be about central and is showing "RESTRICT" at the top of it. Looking at other photographs online I can see S, R, M, L, N etc circled letters below those two lines - my guess is that they illuminate according to the speed read-out but I can't work out whether there are any other read-outs (e.g. words like "RESTRICT") to go with the (presumably) illuminated letters. Plus, there are two circles to the left which I initially expected to be the signal mimics like are found on the right hand side of the AEM-7 cab, however they only ever seem to be showing a white indication. Could it be that when the top one is lit the train is in ACSES (I think that's the name?) signalling such as Penn Central to New Rochelle - and that when the bottom one is lit, it's under MNRR style signalling? The "Time to Penalty" readout is interesting here, and this is kinda what makes me wonder if that's how the notice for engineers to decelerate is managed normally - so I may be wide of the mark generally on this one.

Ok, that's the ACS-64 - the Acela and the AEM-7 do not seem to have the facility for the N/L/M/R readouts, just the signal mimics that would be used west of New Rochelle... so what happens to these guys when they're east of New Rochelle? Do they translate the N/M/L/R to their equivalent speed readings and not show the signal mimic (or perhaps also show some equivalent mimic?) - e.g. when going past a grid that gives an R speed setting, would it show 15 on the signal speed? Would anything show on the signal mimics?

Ok, last loco... a friend of mine solved part of the mystery on this one for me - the SD40-2. So we're talking CSX SD40-2 just for frame of reference. I had wondered how on earth this one would work in in-cab territory until he pointed me to a web site that talks about in-cab signals and these indicate a vertical row of four bulbs down the central pillar:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/B ... 0800-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(I realise this is a UP loco but...)

So down the central pillar are those four lamps - presumably duplicated so the engineer and conductor can clearly see them without moving.

Again, I can't (so far) find anything that tells me what these lamps actually do - are they simply N/L/M/R in that order going down? Do they just light up or do they have some kind of indication / letter / shape in them?

Ok... so, last question...

What does the transition from ACSES to MNRR territory look like?

Is it a simple case of "If the next MNRR block is showing N then show a green proceed on the last ACSES signal, and if it's anything less, show an amber" ? Or is there an overlap during which time essentially both signal systems operate and the driver has to obey the slowest? Or is it a fixed amber?

Of course i'm presuming it's done on the fly - it could just as easily be that New Rochelle is a mandatory stop in both directions and during the stop the driver switches from one to the other and there really is no need for interface or overlap?

Any help greatly appreciated - I have been trying to dig in to this and found some marvellous snippets out, but the answers just seem to be eluding me
(and being a brit with a growing interest in US Railroads isn't really helping!)

Many thanks indeed

Matt Peddlesden

You have a lot of questions here... let me gather my thoughts and get back to you.

A few corrections... there are no "drivers", MNR has engineers. Engineers do not "drive" trains, they "run" or "operate" trains.

The way the cab signals are setup on MNR [N] [L] [M] [R] is the basic progression of cab signals when coming up to a train or stop signal, there are some exceptions to this.

You have a basic idea of what is going on but maybe some clarification is needed. First off MNR does not currently use ACSES though some of its equipment is equipped for future installations.

In your first diagram [N] | [L] | [M] | [R] | [R] Other train, is the correct way showing this, not [N] | [L] | [M] | [R] | [R] | Other train. A subtle change if you notice! The first [R] from the right is in the same block as the other train, not a separate block. The term used here is block not grid. Thus a following train will travel one block under [R] before entering the block that actually has the other train in it. Even if two trains are in the same block every train behind the first one will operate under [R].

The proper names for the cab signals on MNR are:
[N] - Normal Cab - 90mph pas / 45mph frt
[L] - Limited Cab - 45mph pas / 25mph frt
[M] - Medium Cab - 30mph pas / 15mph frt
[R] - Restricted Cab - Restricted Speed

The only signage indicating that you're traveling from on block to another is a sign stating SB xxx on a wayside shack containing the signaling equipment. xxx would be the approximate milepost down to the 1/10 of a mile. This sign is not part of MNR's official signals however, just supplemental information.

Each kind of equipment is slightly different in how you react to a signal downgrade. Some will automatically apply the brake immediately when the downgrade occurs until the train is no longer overspeed. Others will apply a penalty application only if a downgrade is not braked for in line with a set time.

In the case of a signal upgrade, a train can only increase speed after one train length from the point where a more favorable cab signal was received. The train does not have to travel to the next block to increase speed. If a train ahead of you clears or is lined away from you the upgrade will come even if you're in the middle of your block.

The flashing green is called "Proceed Cab"
The double red is "Stop Signal"
The Alternate flashing double red and green is "Absolute Block Signal"

I'm not qualified on the Amtrak stuff but...

MNR also includes the aspects that NORAC uses for its cab signals in MNR's official signals. Thus the cab signal aspects(not indications) seen here...

...are included in MNR's official cab signals as well. However the names and indications are different. In this case what NORAC would call a Clear signal would be Normal Cab on MNR, Approach Medium would be Limited Cab, Approach would be Medium Cab and Restricting would be Restricted Cab. This applies both to the color light and the position light cab signal aspects that are shown.

By doing this Amtrak, CSX P&W can operate on MNR territory using their own cab signal aspects but using MNR's cab signal names and indications. Got it?

In the picture you posted here...

to the left of the words restrict you see a red light over a white light(not two white lights), that would be the corresponding cab signal aspect. So if this photo was taken on MNR property, even if using an Amtrak engine the cab signal name would be Restricted Cab, not Restricting as it would be under NORAC rules.

As far as the (S) (R) (M) (L) (60) (80) (N) in the ACS-64, I do not know if that is intended to be the ADU showing the MNR cab signal aspects or something else. However this is part of a new setup Amtrak is having for its cab signals. I do not know if Amtrak is going to use this to supplement their own signals or not. See this picture, it's not just the ACS-64 that has this setup... http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3689784

The transition from ACSES to MNR(and vice-versa) is on the fly. ACSES is backwards compatible with MNR's four aspect cab-signal system. No switches or anything need to be thrown when changing territories, at least switches pertaining to the signal system. Other features do have to be operated when changing territories.

Hope that helps.

Re: engineers/drivers - sorry, yes, I am getting better at speaking the correct language but I am still far from perfect

Downgrade - I understand that the penalty application puts the brakes in to Suppression - if there's no notice or just a minimal 5 seconds of notice before ATC kicks in the brakes, I would expect this leads to a pretty rough riding experience? Or is that braking set not actually that severe?

Upgrade - understood!

Many thanks indeed
Matt

MattPeddlesden wrote: Downgrade - I understand that the penalty application puts the brakes in to Suppression - if there's no notice or just a minimal 5 seconds of notice before ATC kicks in the brakes, I would expect this leads to a pretty rough riding experience? Or is that braking set not actually that severe?

Yes, it does make for a rough ride at times.

RearOfSignal wrote:In your first diagram [N] | [L] | [M] | [R] | [R] Other train, is the correct way showing this, not [N] | [L] | [M] | [R] | [R] | Other train. A subtle change if you notice!

I guess I'm the slow class here. What am I missing? Both sequences appear identical.

In my example I had erroneously put a vertical bar between the [R] and "other train" implying that other train was in the *next* block, when in fact it is in the same block as the last [R].

Matt.

MattPeddlesden wrote:In my example I had erroneously put a vertical bar between the [R] and "other train" implying that other train was in the *next* block, when in fact it is in the same block as the last [R].

Matt.

Thanks, I see it now! You wouldn't believe I just passed my driver's license eye exam, would you?

To those who work with the system:

What cab signal do you get for switching tracks? How much advanced notice do you get that the interlocking up ahead is going to switch you, giving you a heads up to slow down?

Or does the dispatcher tell you you're going to diverge at the next interlocking and you plan for the signal to want a slower speed?

deltamike172 wrote:To those who work with the system:

What cab signal do you get for switching tracks? How much advanced notice do you get that the interlocking up ahead is going to switch you, giving you a heads up to slow down?

Or does the dispatcher tell you you're going to diverge at the next interlocking and you plan for the signal to want a slower speed?

Knowing when to expect a downgrade approaching an interlocking comes with training and experience. You can not rely on the dispatcher telling you.

There are interlockings with high speed crossovers that you can get a normal cab signal when diverting.

MattPeddlesden wrote:Hi!

My first post on the forums here so please be gentle

I'm trying to create a simulation of the metro north area and how this is then driven from a variety of trains such as SD40-2, ACS-64, M8, AEM-7 and Acela.

Matt, welcome. Is this a bad time to mention that TrainSimulator just released a route that includes most of the things you mentioned in your first post? For example...

http://www.railsimulator.com/product/22 ... +New+Haven" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.engine-driver.com/article/sh ... e-p32ac-dm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.railsimulator.com/product/22 ... awasaki+M8+" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not to burst your bubble or anything

-otto-

I've seen that simulator the signaling is still wrong. It's a simulator it's not the real thing, close but nowhere near the real thing.

RearOfSignal wrote:I've seen that simulator the signaling is still wrong. It's a simulator it's not the real thing, close but nowhere near the real thing.

What are the problems with it?

You might want to ask that question on the Computer gaming and Simulation forum. Failing that, Fan Railer might have a detailed response on here.
I've run it, and can't yet figure out when to anticipate a signal downgrade.

Rockingham Racer wrote:You might want to ask that question on the Computer gaming and Simulation forum. Failing that, Fan Railer might have a detailed response on here.
I've run it, and can't yet figure out when to anticipate a signal downgrade.

Well that's part of it, there isn't anything to give you a heads up to a downgrade. However, the signal aspects in the terminal are not correct. Neither is the spacing of the tracks or the crash walls. The brake pipe on the M8 does not change when brakes are applied, M8 has EP brakes. There is no signal speed or track speed display when not in ACSES mode on the M8. There is no Normal Cab received south of CP1 contrary to what the simulator shows. The cabs do not drop on tracks 3 & 4 for the 45 mph speed restriction before coming out of the Park Ave Tunnel. Track speeds in the Bronx are out of date. Route indicators at CP 112 are missing. And from this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYdaKE8wkMA I don't know why you can fly by a stop signal at 70 mph? A programming error?