• MARC and the new B&P / Frederick Douglass Tunnel

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

  by kitchin
 
The B&P / Frederick Douglass tunnel will be four single-track tubes, with massive ventilation ports. One tunnel "ducks under" two others so the MARC tracks line up at the platforms before and after the tunnel. The old tunnel will be closed off and kept intact.

The West Baltimore MARC station will be rebuilt with high-level platforms.
  by scratchyX1
 
kitchin wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 am The B&P / Frederick Douglass tunnel will be four single-track tubes, with massive ventilation ports. One tunnel "ducks under" two others so the MARC tracks line up at the platforms before and after the tunnel. The old tunnel will be closed off and kept intact.

The West Baltimore MARC station will be rebuilt with high-level platforms.
Last I heard, it would be 2 tracks, with old tunnel left for freight
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:33 am
kitchin wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 am The B&P / Frederick Douglass tunnel will be four single-track tubes, with massive ventilation ports. One tunnel "ducks under" two others so the MARC tracks line up at the platforms before and after the tunnel. The old tunnel will be closed off and kept intact.

The West Baltimore MARC station will be rebuilt with high-level platforms.
Last I heard, it would be 2 tracks, with old tunnel left for freight
https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/b ... story.html

Two tunnel bores. No word on how big they are going to be. If you assume similar to the plan, it would be two tracks.

Still... that's 10-15 years before MARC has to electrify... but then Amtrak will have ACS-64's to spare/sell.
  by kitchin
 
Thanks for the correction. Amtrak links to the Record of Decision, March 2017, which has all four tunnels. But the news reports in June say just two for now.
  by west point
 
What I remember is that it was initially just building 2 bores at first and the other 2 later. However cost estimates were about 75% for 2 bores as for 4. Then costs for the set ups building the other 2 later will push the costs where?

Part of first 2 costs may be the cross over bore for MARC at Baltimore Penn?
  by STrRedWolf
 
west point wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:50 pm What I remember is that it was initially just building 2 bores at first and the other 2 later. However cost estimates were about 75% for 2 bores as for 4. Then costs for the set ups building the other 2 later will push the costs where?

Part of first 2 costs may be the cross over bore for MARC at Baltimore Penn?
Maybe for setting it up so they could bore the cross-over at a later date. There's still going to be work to reconfigure CHARLES and BRIDGE to handle the new routes, and don't be surprised if BRIDGE gets a full 1-2/2-1 crossover... or they rename it to a nearby road. There's still work if they want to turn the B&P into a freight-only line.
  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:11 am
west point wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:50 pm What I remember is that it was initially just building 2 bores at first and the other 2 later. However cost estimates were about 75% for 2 bores as for 4. Then costs for the set ups building the other 2 later will push the costs where?

Part of first 2 costs may be the cross over bore for MARC at Baltimore Penn?
Maybe for setting it up so they could bore the cross-over at a later date. There's still going to be work to reconfigure CHARLES and BRIDGE to handle the new routes, and don't be surprised if BRIDGE gets a full 1-2/2-1 crossover... or they rename it to a nearby road. There's still work if they want to turn the B&P into a freight-only line.
Don't forget that alot of the work is for rerouting the tracks outside the tunnel, and the new ADA compliant west Baltimore station, with high platforms
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:26 am Don't forget that alot of the work is for rerouting the tracks outside the tunnel, and the new ADA compliant west Baltimore station, with high platforms
West Baltimore started screaming for high platforms the day Halethorpe got high platforms, and got the megaphone when BaltimoreLink turned it into a proper transfer station with bus bays. It so needs it since all the other stations are high platform.

The question now is... do I spend 30 minutes from West Baltimore to Penn and then back down by bus... or do I get off a West Baltimore and pick up a bus anyway, and get to work in roughly 20 minutes? Ehhhh... (going back home would definitely go up to Penn because heating/air conditioning).
  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:53 pm
scratchyX1 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:26 am Don't forget that alot of the work is for rerouting the tracks outside the tunnel, and the new ADA compliant west Baltimore station, with high platforms
West Baltimore started screaming for high platforms the day Halethorpe got high platforms, and got the megaphone when BaltimoreLink turned it into a proper transfer station with bus bays. It so needs it since all the other stations are high platform.

The question now is... do I spend 30 minutes from West Baltimore to Penn and then back down by bus... or do I get off a West Baltimore and pick up a bus anyway, and get to work in roughly 20 minutes? Ehhhh... (going back home would definitely go up to Penn because heating/air conditioning).
Wasn't west baltimore sorta an add hoc station, created for MARC service in 84, replacing the edmonson station two blocks north? Not that the old station wasn't also on a curve.

Going in, I'd use the bus. More options for getting downtown, the light blue (which uses the death star trench) and the orange. So less waiting. I know it's impractical, but a shuttle from west balt station to lexington or charles center timed to connect with MARC trains would likely get a lot of use.
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:25 pm Wasn't west baltimore sorta an add hoc station, created for MARC service in 84, replacing the edmonson station two blocks north? Not that the old station wasn't also on a curve.

Going in, I'd use the bus. More options for getting downtown, the light blue (which uses the death star trench) and the orange. So less waiting. I know it's impractical, but a shuttle from west balt station to lexington or charles center timed to connect with MARC trains would likely get a lot of use.
The one good thing I have is that work is within two blocks of Charles Center. So there's that. Just wish the subway service was built out a hell of a lot more.
  by STrRedWolf
 
https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/inf ... el-project

Amtrak's issuing Requests for Letters of Interest for the southern approach portion of the new tunnel.
  by west point
 
It is amazing how much preliminary work is needed outside of the new south portal. Just a few items.
1. Relocate alignment of present tracks to new alignment without interfeering with Amtrak and Marc trains.
2. Relocate CAT to meet new track alignments.
3. Build new West Baltimore station with high platforms. Will not iterfeer with present low platform station.
4. Change street bridges ( aboout 8 ? ) guess that means new bridges.
5, IInstall manual switch for construction siding
6. All this for over $1B

All the construction for 2 new bores will be over $4.5B. What is puzzling is that the final 2 additional bores are quoted as only costing ~1$1B+ . It would seem that when TBM(s) finish the first 2 bores that Amtrak would at least have the TBMs bore the other 2 bores. Do not finish the 2 additional bores but that would eliminate the costs of having to later setting up borings and buying TBM(s). All spoil removal would continue. Amtraak probably would not be able to dump spoil at same location. Amtrak also acknowledges the possibility of encountering dirty dirt with the first 2 bores. Disposal of possible dirty dirt later might be much more difficult.

Here is Record of Decision of March 2017 that goes into more detail.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Signed.pdf
  by Sand Box John
 
west point

All the construction for 2 new bores will be over $4.5B. What is puzzling is that the final 2 additional bores are quoted as only costing ~1$1B+ . It would seem that when TBM(s) finish the first 2 bores that Amtrak would at least have the TBMs bore the other 2 bores. Do not finish the 2 additional bores but that would eliminate the costs of having to later setting up borings and buying TBM(s). All spoil removal would continue. Amtraak probably would not be able to dump spoil at same location. Amtrak also acknowledges the possibility of encountering dirty dirt with the first 2 bores. Disposal of possible dirty dirt later might be much more difficult.


Amtrak may store the TBM for later use when they award the contract for the third on fourth tunnels.

I will note the TBM used to bore the WMATA Red line tunnels between Rock Creek Park and Pooks Hill Road was previously used to bore the tunnel for a particle accelerator in Texas.
  by srepetsk
 
Sand Box John wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:03 amI will note the TBM used to bore the WMATA Red line tunnels between Rock Creek Park and Pooks Hill Road was previously used to bore the tunnel for a particle accelerator in Texas.
Are there any photos or news stories of the day linking these two together? I'd love to know more!
  by west point
 
The red line bores probably are much smaller diameter than the needed bore size for Amtrak and MARC. Will need a much stronger TBM and larger to handle the concrete liners which will have different radius of curves.

EDIT: Forgot of freight plate "H" clearances.