M9 and M9A Procurement & Acceptance

Also, an update was presented at June CPOC. Here’s my basic summary of what went down. The last 14 cars in Nebraska are coming at a slower than usual rate due to labor and parts shortages. The plant in Nebraska has a turn over rate of up to 50 workers a month based on what was said at CPOC. September 2023 is the new date for conditional acceptance of the last car. Sad but not much can be done. As for the last car. 9202 has pretty much been fully built on its exterior portion and continues to make its way down the assembly line. New training methods and other ways to keep workers and create higher build quality are implemented with heavy MTA oversight (Babysitting) due to the not so functional management at the Lincoln plant in particular. This will help the R211 fleet not run into the same issues that we have dealt with.

BOMOPTSKWH wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:36 pm The glazing damage on the M7s is from the highly caustic etching chemicals used in the car washes. The damage was done early on, so they stopped running them through the wash tracks. Remember the absolutely filthy M7s for a long period back in 05-07? About the same time they tried the completely useless and expensive sanders on them. MTA- going your way.

While that cleaning agent didnt help, the glazing issue is mainly due to the sun UV breaking down the lexan. Thats why the south side windows are far worse. The car wash chemical etched in those spot marks you see.

Jake Rothman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:09 pm Also, an update was presented at June CPOC. Here’s my basic summary of what went down. The last 14 cars in Nebraska are coming at a slower than usual rate due to labor and parts shortages. The plant in Nebraska has a turn over rate of up to 50 workers a month based on what was said at CPOC. September 2023 is the new date for conditional acceptance of the last car. Sad but not much can be done. As for the last car. 9202 has pretty much been fully built on its exterior portion and continues to make its way down the assembly line. New training methods and other ways to keep workers and create higher build quality are implemented with heavy MTA oversight (Babysitting) due to the not so functional management at the Lincoln plant in particular. This will help the R211 fleet not run into the same issues that we have dealt with.

I gather that's MTA Capitol Programs?

I recently heard about the massive turnover that you noted. Has to make you wonder what's causing it. And whether MTA has anyone involved who's not a hack and is capable of actually providing proper supervision of a vendor. FYI, in a totally different field, I do contract negotiations, vendor risk management and the like, and I've dealt with some really bad vendors, either incompetent or sleazy or both.

9161-9162 accepted for service as of yesterday making the total number of cars accepted so far at 128. Ran a Huntington and Babylon round trip yesterday and is currently doing another Babylon round trip now. It is the trailing motor east and leading west. This is the first pair of 9160s to enter service.

9096-9095 was delivered via MP15s to Hillside on July 21st. 9160-9159 is the most recent test train leading east. Should have another round of cars accepted for service soon as the month begins.

Earlier this week I saw car 9171 operating in what I believe was a revenue train through Mineola. Highest number I've seen so far.

A few days ago I saw an M9 train at Jamaica a few tracks away (I was on T1). First time I've ever seen one with my own eyes. But nothing up close.

Not exactly the best news out of the book. CPOC has announced that the last 44 cars will not be accepted till next year… At this point, the only cars left for this year should be 9093-9094-9095-9096 and the remaining 9120 series. Hopefully 9013-9014-9015-9016 as well. Anything 9157-9202 with the exception of 9161-9162 and 9171-9172 which are already running will probably not be taken in until then unless a switch around happens. 

JR - Thanks for the mention about the current M9 status on deliveries and LIRR acceptance...

When new M9 cars are sent east by Kawasaki from NE are they shipped on their own wheels to Yonkers, NY
as MNCR's M8 cars have been or placed on flatcars as was the case with all 836 M7 cars from Bombardier?

I always found interesting that all 338 MNCR M7 cars were delivered on their own wheels - and the LIRR M7
cars were shipped on flatcars from Bombardier - Why was there a delivery difference to MNCR and the LIRR?

Will those last 44 M9 cars remain at the builder in NE - be shipped to Yonkers or delivered to the LIRR for
storage until they pass their testing and are fully accepted? Are 9201-9202 slated to be the last M9 pair?
I will thank you in advance for any feedback...MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:25 pm
I always found interesting that all 338 MNCR M7 cars were delivered on their own wheels - and the LIRR M7
cars were shipped on flatcars from Bombardier - Why was there a delivery difference to MNCR and the LIRR?

The difference between the MNR & LI M7s is the air brake setup. The LI M7s do not have the extra valves to allow control of the brakes via brake pipe for control by a locomotive. Yes, they can be towed by a locomotive, but there is no graduation in the application/release. When set up for towing, a fully charged BP is a full release, less than 100psi is an emergency application. So, when towed by a loco, speed is restricted.

The MNR M7s were ordered with this capability (DB40X valve?) allowing such control of the brakes.

The M9 cars have the DB40X valve, but it is removed upon delivery at LIRR, sent back to Yonkers for the next delivery. LI wants no part of the valve and related components.

Bit of history, the M1/M3s were equipped with a similar triple valve setup, and delivered on their own wheels in tow from Philiadelphia, the valves were later removed by LIRR.

MN M2/4/6 had and retained the triple valves, and went OUT on their own wheels as well.

1. What's the 'big deal' of having this valve that makes it so repugnant to LIRR?
2. Outside of 3rd rail shoe types, what other significant differences between MN and LIRR's latest cars? As I recall, MN's can handle multiple voltages, or is that only for CAT equipped?

photobug56 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:41 am 1. What's the 'big deal' of having this valve that makes it so repugnant to LIRR?

I think the reason they don't want the valve is that safety equipment must be kept in working order and inspected, and as this valve is not used by LIRR, it adds an unnecessary maintenance (and possibly operational) burden.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:41 am 1. What's the 'big deal' of having this valve that makes it so repugnant to LIRR?
2. Outside of 3rd rail shoe types, what other significant differences between MN and LIRR's latest cars? As I recall, MN's can handle multiple voltages, or is that only for CAT equipped?

1) Essentially, maintenance of 836 valves (and related apparatus) that are of little use. These would all have to be inspected, removed, cleaned, rebuilt, tested etc at specific intervals.

2) by latest cars, do you mean M8/M9, or differences between the railroads' respective M7s?

In summary, each railroad has different cab signal/ATC setup, the aforementioned air brake valves. Most of the cars are very similar and may be interoperable.

Minor differences are that the LI cars have number boards that are illuminated, while MNR does not, and the MN M7s have scoops or shrouds over the HVAC intakes on the roof.

The M8s are a different animal, though the can operate in line with M7a in restricted situations. The M8s have the overhead catenary, and the contact shoes can adapt to under-riding or over-riding third rail. A few years back they ran some M8 sets in and around the Hillside Complex with no issues.

9167-9168 entered service today. Currently running on Train #105. First pair to enter service since late July. Test trains are also back on the roster again

Merry Christmas everyone ! 9129-9130 entered service last week, 9159-9160 followed this morning, what a gift ! 9187-88 is the most recent test train leader. Progress is being made