LV black stripe width.

Can anyone tell me the prototype width of these black stripes??

http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/8011 ... b028yr.jpg

and perhaps the total width of the whole 3-stripe set?
I need to know the dimensions because I need to make my own decals..
thanks!
Scot

just curious Scot, why make them, when you can buy them, already done, for the LV? I just received an "early Christmas present", from Mike Caum, in the form of a $600 dollar order of LV decals, and I was easily able to purchase 10 sets, for early switchers, and road units, both with/without the extra wide base stripe. Will give you his info, if you are interested, as he stacks a huge assortment of LV decals, both current, and NOS for long gone runs. As far as that switcher goes, she is sporting 4" wide stripes, but I don't have info on the vertical spacing, between the stripes, although easily scaled from a set of SW-1 prints. I just considered this: are you making them for another scale? If so, get a set, in HO, or O scales, and "scale them" to the size you need. The decal companies have already done the hard part, just do a little creative math work, and you should be set. Just a thought.......Regards

thanks G.A.!

yes, im making these for an "obscure" scale..1/29 to be exact.
it actually far easier, and much more accurate, for me to design the decals in photoshop myself, from scratch, then have them printed, rather than scan and enlarge already existing HO scale decals..
(for something as simple as three parallel stripes anyway.)
For something more elaborate, like the black lettering on the side of a snowbird, or white nose stripes, I would actually enlarge accurate HO decals.

the 4" is what I needed..I can figure out the rest from photos and my actual model.
thanks!

Scot

Scotty,

According to LV Locomotive Painting Blueprint 13063,
Locos 112 - 115 have 4" stripes with 9" spacing between them.

Loco numbers are 7", LEHIGH VALLEY is also 7" located 15" above the top stripe, 8' 9" from the cab, and extennds 11' 3".

Loco numbers on the front and back are 6".

The stripes extend all the way around the cab and cab step, but the top front stripe ends at the edge of the grill, the bottom 2 going all the way around the hood.step in the front.

Body and roof are Cornell Red, Stripes, underbody, and tanks are black, lettering is imitation gold, flag is gray, handrails and step edges are yellow.

The risers on the steps are red and the edges are yellow.

Hope this helps.

Paint numbers are (all Bupont Dulux Enamel)
Red...........88-24428
Black.........83-8450
Yellow .......88-9356
Imat. Gold..95-014
Gray..........58-11616

How's this for overkill?

By the way, the Dupont paint is a bear to work with. It has to be dried under infra-red light and is tough to apply as well. But it was the only Cornell Red available when I paintd my first LV loco. Fortunately it was metal. Plastic would have melted under the lights.

woo! thanks Ray!
thats great info!!

Scot

Scotty,

If you have questions about other dimensions on LV stuff, I have copies of the Sayre blueprints that I donated to ARHS and would be glad to look up what you need.

GRSJr wrote:Scotty,

According to LV Locomotive Painting Blueprint 13063,
Locos 112 - 115 have 4" stripes with 9" spacing between them.

Loco numbers are 7", LEHIGH VALLEY is also 7" located 15" above the top stripe, 8' 9" from the cab, and extennds 11' 3".

Loco numbers on the front and back are 6".

All those numbers appear to be correct, except for:

Locos 112 - 115 have 4" stripes with 9" spacing between them.

there is something wrong with that data!
it doesnt fit.

at first I tried 4" stripes with 9" of open red space inbetween each stripe..
that made the whole 3-stripe set 30" wide..
far too large. not even close.

then I thought, "well maybe the 9" space between stripes is between stripe *centers*"..
so I tried that..the whole set is now 22" wide..better, but still a bit too tall, and the 4" stripes look far too thick.

so then I measured the space on my 1/29 scale model, to see how wide I really want that stripe set.
its 23mm, on the model, from the deck to the top of the top stripe.
draw that out in photoshop full-size, then take some actual historic SW1 photos, cut out the stripes from the photo, stick them into my decal template, and use the photos as a guide for determining stripe width..
I ended up with a stripe width of 2.5", with a 6.25" gap inbetween each stripe.
for a total stripe set width of 20"..that fits the model perfectly!

So for my model, im using 2.5" wide stripes, with 6.25" gaps..
That might be 100% accurate, but it looks right..

so can anyone explain why the 4" stripes look too thick?
all the other dimensions appear to be fine.

I used the big SW1 drawing from railroad paintshop.
found the prototype dimensions:
http://gelwood.el.wny.org/manual/sw1-gen.html
then used the wheelbase length as a guide to draw the 2.5" and 4" stripes..(these drawings are reduced for the web)

here are the 2.5" stripes:


Here are the 4" stripes:



and this is my 2.5" stripe decal set, 20" wide total, test-printed on paper and cut out to check size..






Scot

I just did one more check..
just to make sure im not losing it!

if we accept that the "Lehigh Valley" lettering on the side is 7" tall (which I do accept)
then 4 inches is more than half of 7 inches..so a 4" stripe should be more than half as tall as the 7" lettering.. 57% of 7".
they clearly arent 57% of 7 inches.
they are less than half of 7 inches.



Scot

Scot,

Sorry about that! I seem to have pulled the wrong painting diagram or something. I'm embarrased.

Here's the dimensions from
LV Painting Blueprint 13063 revised 9/27/51

Stripe width = 3 1/2"
Space between stripes = 6 1/4"
Space to lower stripe from deck = 8"

Height of Diamond = 2' 41/4"
Width of Diamond = 4' 0"

Height of "LEHIGH VALLEY" = 7"
Width = 11' 3"
dist between the "H" and "V" = 2' 3"
dist. above top stripe = 15"
no dimension given for location from cab/end but it is centered over the diamond and this centerline scales
11' 8 1/2" from the cab face.

Loco number on cab = 7"
DS-2 = 2 1/4"

Both end numbers = 6"

Sorry about the mixup, but these numbers are correct.

I find your 2 1/2" stripes too narrow compared to the prototype pix and the 4" stripes are indeed a bit thick.
BUt I find them closer than the 2 1/2" which makes sense because they should be 3 1/2".

Let me know how these fit the model. If they don't fit, then either the LV painting diagram is wrong (not likely since it was revised) or the model is not the correct size.

I calculate the height from deck to the top of the upper stripe to be 31". That should fit perfectly.

Ray

Nice job calculating the 6.25 in correctly....wow....

I was going to mention that we could use the 1" railings as a guide to see how big the stripes are....but I guess thats a moot point now.

thanks Ray!
no problem..I shall revise!

Scot

EUREKA!
thats perfect..thanks for the dimensions Ray!

I re-did the decal sheet, enlarged the drawing of the SW1 to full-size for 1/29 scale, than cut and pasted my decals onto the drawing with photoshop, without re-sizing them at all.. here is the result:





and here is my final decal sheet!
8.5 X 11 inches.



thats a reduced-resolution version for posting on-line..
its only 72 dpi..(or technically, "ppi")
the real version is 300 ppi and will be printed on an alps printer.

thanks for the help everyone!

Scot

Looks great, Scot.

GREAT SCOTT, (pun intended). that's a nice looking loco.

I don't suppose you could spare a decal sheet so I can do old 112 one of these days. I've always wanted a large scale LV loco.


I'd wish it were 1/32 scale to match the G track, but it's only off by 10%. Never have been able to figure out why the G manufacturers mess up the scale so badly. 1/32 is one of the perfect scales for Englishmen. It's 3/8" == 1 foot, so all the inch measurements are perfect fractions.

Oh well, there's lots of stuff I don't comprehend.

Ray,
let me know if you ever get a Large scale switcher, and I will have a set printed for you! (I dont print them myself..I send my finished artwork to a guy in Arizona who prints them..)

there isnt an actual SW1 available in large scale, im 'bashing mine from a USA trains NW2:
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/SW1/

USA trains just came out with an Alco S4!!
im hoping someone will make blunt-truck sideframes to convert it to an S2..if so, I will buy one!

the whole 1/29 vs. 1/32 scale thing is interesting..
I will try to give a condensed history..

yes, 1/32 is the correct scale for standard gauge trains on 45mm ("G gauge") track..
1/29 scale models are too large for the gauge, which makes 1/29 scale standard gauge models slightly narrow-gauge.
this was done on purpose, knowing full well it was the incorrect scale for the gauge.


(technically the term "G gauge" or "G scale" isnt correct for ALL Large scale trains..it is only correct for 1/22.5 scale specifically..so I will use "Large Scale"...Large Scale trains are any trains that run on 45mm track..there are many different scales that do.)


Before the 1980's, there were no American prototypes available in "Large scale" they were mostly all European prototypes.
The largest maker, LGB, a German company, made (and still makes) many Large Scale trains of European prototypes.
the scale is 1/22.5, which is the correct scale for METER gauge trains on 45mm track.

then! in the early 80's, LGB came out with its first American prototype, the Colorado Mogul. an American 3-foot locomotive:
http://217.160.206.33/produkt.nsf/WebSu ... 36003D1515

This locomotive pretty much got Large Scale modeling, and Garden Railroading, started in the US, after that, it exploded to what we have today. (if you are interested in seeing what is available in Large Scale, pick up a copy of "Garden Railroading" magazing..new stuff is coming out all the time!! SD70's soon! )
there is also a good selection here:
http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychao ... guide.html


So now, with the LGB mogul, we can model American 1880's Narrow Gauge..other companys come out with more in 1/20.3 scale (3-foot gauge for 45mm track) like Bachman and their "Big Hauler"
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/ ... /81096.jpg

well thats all great if you are into late 19th century 3-foot gauge..
but what about Modern Diesels?!

In 1988 Aristocraft comes out with the first Large Scale diesel..the Alco FA:
http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/loco ... ALCOFA.jpg

this is where 1/29 scale was created..
Aristocraft had a problem..
ALL the large scale trains that already existed (mainly LGB) were of 1/22.5 scale..even the American prototypes..
(which by now included some rolling stock too)
many Americans were already into LGB trains.
If Aristocraft introduced its standard gauge line of diesels and rolling stock in the correct 1/32 scale, the models would be visually smaller than the already existing LGB trains..they couldnt run with LGB and still "look right"...that could really hurt sales...if many people were already invested in LGB trains (which they were) they would want ALL their Large scale trains to run together and look nice together!
(remember..there were (and are) TONS of "Garden Railroaders" who dont know, or care, anything abut prototypes or scale..they just run whatever they like!)

So Aristocraft made the decision to go with 1/29 scale instead of 1/32 scale, because that made the models slightly larger, which then made them the SAME size as the already existing LGB trains!!
today, a 1/29 scale modern, standard gauge boxcar is visually the same overall size as a 1/20.3 or 1/22.5 1880's narrow gauge boxcar..they look fine running together, because they "match" in size..
If Aristocraft had gone with 1/32 scale, the models would be noticably smaller, and a huge chunk of the market wouldnt buy their trains becuase they wopuld be "too small" to run with the LGB trains they already have..
so it was just a business decision..and a good one IMO considering the state of the hobby at the time.

Today, Aristocraft and USA trains make modern trains in 1/29 scale.
MTH has been a rebel and introduced large scale trains in the correct 1/32 scale..but im not a fan of MTH, because they go for the "toy train" style..swinging pilots like Lionel! ugh..

1/29 has basically been accepted as the standard for Large Scale modeling of modern American modern standard gauge...

Today, we have quite a mix of scales running on 45mm track!

1/13.7 scale - (7/8n2) Maine 2-foot gauge on 45mm

1/20.3 scale (F scale) - correct for 3-foot gauge on 45mm.
this is probably the largest segment of the Large Scale hobby in the US.

1/22.5 scale (the true "G scale") - correct for Meter gauge on 45mm.
the majority of European prototypes are in this scale.

1/24 scale - 3-foot models mostly, although the gauge isnt correct.

1/29 scale - incorrect for standard gauge, but the largest segment of standard gauge models are in this scale.

1/32 scale - correct for standard gauge on 45mm.
smaller segment than 1/29, but its trying.

I even invented a scale!
I call it 29n2 scale:
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/29n2/


Scot

Scot.

What a mess. I just hope someone in addition to MTH picks up the 1/32 line. It would make great sense in the future when the "Garden Railroaders" get serious and want to approximate the real thing. Right now it seems hopeless.

The S-4 to S-2 would be really interesting. I have the painting drawing for that one too.

Have you seen the LV PA that is offered in G? If so, is realistic. I passed on the FA/FB because it looked a bit "toy-like" to me. I do love Alcos though.

Have you considered the SW-1 in O-scale, 2-rail? Is there a reasonable starting point? I have the Atlas SW-900, LV110 and it's a beauty, but the SW-1 is really a great looking loco.

I was considering trying to convert a Weaver RS-3 to LV211, the hammerhead, but never got to it.

I did convert Weaver RS-3, LV213 to an RS-2 because that is what LV213 was. I also added the steam generator equipment on Weaver RS-3. LV215 becasuse it was so equipped. Both turned out very nice.

What software do you use to create the artwork for your decals? And what do you use to "paste" them on a model? How do you color the model drawings and where do the originals come from? In other words, how can I do this?