• LIRR C420 Preservation: Dakota Southern Railroad Engine 213

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

  by RGlueck
 
Okay, I'm done. Feels better when I stop banging my head against the wall.
  by Twin Forks NRHS
 
Hello everyone,
Over the past few weeks, we have been negotiating with the Dakota Southern to purchase Long Island 213. Unfortunately, we could not agree on a price and they said that they would be pursuing other offers at this time. We obviously understand the historic significance of the locomotive to Long Island, but there comes a point where you can only put down so much money before it becomes impossible to do anything else within the organization. For the price he was asking for, there was no way we could sufficiently fundraise for the locomotive in the short amount of time given.
That being said, stay tuned for some exciting announcements that we have coming up in the very near future!
  by belpaire
 
Twin Forks NRHS wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:50 pm there was no way we could sufficiently fundraise for the locomotive in the short amount of time given.
This should be the takeaway from this situation. If a LI group wants to preserve a C-420, they should talk to the owners of the existing units, express interest and see if ballpark price can be obtained for when the owner no longer has use for it. Then set up a dedicated fund for purchase, transportation, and restoration. A home for it has to be located on Long Island.

Waiting until an owner says "You have 30 days or I'm scrapping it", makes putting all of the pieces together substantially more difficult.
  by Pensyfan19
 
Twin Forks NRHS wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:50 pm Unfortunately, we could not agree on a price and they said that they would be pursuing other offers at this time. We obviously understand the historic significance of the locomotive to Long Island, but there comes a point where you can only put down so much money before it becomes impossible to do anything else within the organization. For the price he was asking for, there was no way we could sufficiently fundraise for the locomotive in the short amount of time given.
Could you please provide more specifics regarding the price? Is there any way more time can be allowed to raise funds for this locomotive? There still is a general interest among Long Islanders to preserve a piece of LI history, and there are plenty if ways to spread the word about saving this locomotive.
  by eolesen
 
Not sure what Watco is asking, but back in 2017, IRM acquired a C424 in running order, and a scrapper had already bid $50K before the museum got involved.

In addition to outbidding the scrapper, there was an estimated $7000 in transportation costs for a 200 mile move, and $6000 to cover the construction of new track at IRM for her to sit on ($95/foot for uncovered).

With contingency, $65K total target.

I can't imagine a running C420 would be less than $25K scrap value plus another $15K to move it.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

  by workextra
 
The last I heard is the owner won’t entertain an offer of less than $35k and the buyer has to to pay to get the engine up to standard to be shipped dead in tow.
$35k +maintenances(labor/parts) + shipping we’re looking somewhere north of $45-50k Providing he took the offer do $35K cash on the spot.
If anyone is willing to drop $50k with no strings attached contact Twin Forks and maybe they’ll forward that offer to the Owner of 213.

Trust me, there’s been attempts to make an offer and get the engine through a fund raiser. However the owner at that time never 1) gave a number, 2) would
Say it’s not for sale. So that donation plan never was realized.

Also Twin Forks had 2 donations up for their B&M car and their Mopac cabooses.
If those are an example of what the C420 would be it not worth it.
Clearly there is all talk but no real interest. Because if there was the Mopac fund would be north of 20k now and the B&M car fund following closely behind.
I absolutely don’t want to hear the BS “it’s not a LIRR car”
You take what you can get, especially here on LI. Be proud of what we have and help! Talk is cheap!
  by RGlueck
 
Belpaire made a good set of suggestions, principally to contact current owners of the last C420's, then make a plan to locate it on the Island, third to start a fund.
This one time I'm going to say the unthinkable: Don't waste your money on Mopac cabooses, but find buyers for them and start your C420 fund. If the B&M car was a Long Island service coach, that's a horse of a different color.

Kind sorry that the Twin Forks people waited so long to enter this discussion. Whether earlier involvement might make a difference is doubtful, but we'll never know.

(Applies ice to forehead)
  by Twin Forks NRHS
 
RGlueck wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:55 am Belpaire made a good set of suggestions, principally to contact current owners of the last C420's, then make a plan to locate it on the Island, third to start a fund.
This one time I'm going to say the unthinkable: Don't waste your money on Mopac cabooses, but find buyers for them and start your C420 fund. If the B&M car was a Long Island service coach, that's a horse of a different color.

Kind sorry that the Twin Forks people waited so long to enter this discussion. Whether earlier involvement might make a difference is doubtful, but we'll never know.

(Applies ice to forehead)
Hi RGlueck,

The chapter has been in contact with the owner for several months. We prefer to spend our time acting on information - we don't spend considerable time posting on forums. The current owner of the locomotive has not given us a definitive price on the locomotive - only statements that the offer is not good enough. We cannot start a fund to save the locomotive if we don't even know what the asking price is, in addition to moving costs or if the sale is even possible at all. I understand your frustration, but reality often dictates what can and can't be saved. We've made our best attempts to save the locomotive, but things do not always work in the favor of preservation.

Can you elaborate on your attempts to contact the owner? Perhaps you've had more success and can provide additional information.
  by workextra
 
Hi all. I think we need to clarify a few things here.
The following is my sole personal opinion and interpretation and is not affiliated with any other person or organization.

There is a lot of good thing happening now under a new generation after they clean the ashes of the previous failed generation of rail preservationists.
The buff first attitude has absolutely killed rail preservation locally as does the “save ONLY LI stuff” attitude.
That said.
First and foremost. Had the previous generations did their duty and due diligence for preservation, this generation wouldn’t have to deal with lost the collection that LIST had in the 1980s That was a disgrace and a major stain on LIRR railroad preservation. Their Flat out failure is what leads today’s preservationist to grab what they can get and cherish it like gold having learned the lesson from the sidelines.

Frankly, Any and all of you have absolute nerve to dare question the Twin Forks organization for saving the MOPAC cabooses, which to be Frank spent more time here on LI than they did on the MOPAC it self, Had the aforementioned collection been properly preserved and kept serviceable or indoors we would still have it today.
I have a few questions for this community.
What is wrong with some diversity in your collection?
They’re unique. They’re the classic red caboose and unlike passenger cars they’re much easier to restore and could be completed in less time and with a smaller budget. The public at large either love or hate the LIRR.
Why not have something that represent another non local railroad?

Seriously my fellow rail fans, Cut the crap. It’s absolute rubbish and it’s what chased away an entire generation. Open your wallet before your mouth and you’d be surprised at what can be done!

To those of you with questions regarding the B&M car in the Twin Forks collection.
1) THIS CAR CARRIED PASSENGERS ON LIRR IN REVENUE SERVICE.
2) when retired was converted into an alcohol-sandite MoW car and used to the late 1990s-early 2000.
So we still questioning this car being in the collection?
I Hope not, it wouldn’t be wise to do.
Regarding the organization’s decision to restore it to B&M colors, Once again
Was made to bring diversity to the pure and frankly boring LIRR only collection.
There is no argument there either.

I’m disgusted by the community coming on here and complaining about saving 213, than have the nerve to say an organization should sell their cabooses cause they’re “not Long Island” so they can get 213 with no guarantee.
Said organization to my knowledge was involved with 213 for over 2 years.
The people crying about saving it have not been and we’re not privy to the conversations had to try and bring the unit home.

Step up, Put up, or Shut up.
  by RGlueck
 
You want diversity, you've got it in opinions.
No problem with the B&M coach - none.
Three Mopac cabooses? Problem, especially as LIRR cabooses were scrapped, and LIRR coaches are still going to scrap.
If you had opened up about saving the C420, you might have had the donors you're now whining about.
Don't even attempt to go toe-to-toe regarding preservation with me as you're building on sand, not granite.
  by Twin Forks NRHS
 
RGlueck wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:50 am You want diversity, you've got it in opinions.
No problem with the B&M coach - none.
Three Mopac cabooses? Problem, especially as LIRR cabooses were scrapped, and LIRR coaches are still going to scrap.
If you had opened up about saving the C420, you might have had the donors you're now whining about.
Don't even attempt to go toe-to-toe regarding preservation with me as you're building on sand, not granite.
Hi Rich,

Since you have so much experience in preservation, you must have already contacted the owner. Please, help us with any information you can provide.

I'm not saying that you're a poor preservationist - I'm asking for your help. If you don't want to help save 213, that's your prerogative. We're not whining about donors - we have not been able to get a firm price from the owner and he does not want to communicate directly with any interested parties. I don't mind if another organization or person is the one that actually saves the locomotive. If you can do it, do it. We can use all the help we can in this cause.

Let us know how your previous communications with the owner went and any future communications. We will help by any means we can.
  by RGlueck
 
I've made two overtures to the company owning the locomotive and both have received no response. The point I'm making is that taking action and getting prepared makes a lot of sense. Waiting with everything under a blanket and facing ultimate disappointment makes none.
I think Twin Forks has done a spectacular job of preserving LIRR MOW and revenue stock. Don't get me wrong about that. Fund raising, building a battery of support for a specific project makes things happen.

I would suggest TF look into the Buffalo Southern unit and the other one or two remaining potentially available. Make it known that you want it and then get your ducks (LI ducks) in a row. It's not just TF who wish to see one of our original 200's saved. You might be surprised. Operational or not, this is a piece of purely Long Island heritage.
  by Dogbert666
 
A few things:

The owner of 213 doesn't seem to be a serious seller. If he's only taking queries via a third party, it makes me wonder if he's even got email. This IS South Dakota we're talking about. Phone calls and in person conversations are far more common than emails in that part of the world. If he really wanted to part with it, he would have made a deal years ago. It's not like no one has tried to buy it off him. If he was gun-ho about getting cash from it, he would have scrapped it ages ago (along with some of the other actual junk he's got laying around - that DD40 shell is worthless, and no one even mentions the rotted out SOO Gp30 shell in the same dead line...).

Unless 213 is laden with asbestos, it's either going to be scrapped or moved to another location, where it will sit until the owner passes away. Asbestos in this situation is good, as I'd imagine that disqualifies quite a few scrappers from wanting to go near it. It reminds me a little of those D&H shark noses: assuming they're in that shed, no one will see them until the owner passes.

Different topic: A lot of the recent cars and cabooses that went to scrap were pretty beat up. None left the island on their own wheels. If an org is struggling to find cash to preserve what it has, another rusting out, floor-less baggage car or a caboose with a smashed end stairway isn't going to help the cause. LIRR staff seem a little odd about donating equipment too. I tried to get a caboose for a legit display in Queens, and those conversations were cut off randomly. (I'm not quite sure why though I suspect a not-too-smart person not connected to rail preservation also in talks with the MTA threw a wrench in the works).

That B&M alcohol spray car has a great story. Definitely worth the effort no matter what color it's restored to. It's paint, it could be changed later if need be... (oh wait that takes funding... cash... volunteers... all not easy to come by).

The 211 or 221 would be potentially easier to get and certainly closer to transport. Even if they don't run they'd make a good display. The mere fact that these both exist and would be cheaper to transport that 213 *should* be something its owner considers if trying to sell it to underfunded groups on this side of the country, but like I said, I don't think he's a serious seller.

I forget the details offhand but at least one of the C420s in mexico seemed to just be rusting away at a museum there. I can't imagine it ever getting back to the states but I wonder if anyone has ever reached out to get some info on it's current state, and if some sort of support could be used to maintain it in place. I doubt many buffs would be interested in making a trip just to see it, but who knows where collaboration between like minded people could go long term.