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  • Lehigh Valley in Philadelphia?

  • Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.
Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

Moderator: scottychaos

 #950570  by Minneapolitan
 
Hey all.

I'm wondering how (and when) the Lehigh Valley got to Philly, and where it went within the city limits. I assume it had trackage rights over Reading, but any information about LV in Philly is pretty tough to find. How was business there? Were there docks? When did service there end? Did any other anthracite roads have trackage rights to Philly or Camden?

Any information on this would be helpful!
 #950631  by 56-57
 
The larger question is, where did you come across anything, anywhere, that stated this?

Having gone over the Archer book, and many others, I've never heard of this. There was as time when the LV, as well as nearly everything else in the Atlantic States and New England were under Philadelphia & Reading control, however the LV never got to Philadelphia on their own or anyone else's rails to the best of my knowledge. If you can show evidence to the contrary, I'm sure more than a handful of people would be interested.

-Micah
 #950644  by scottychaos
 
There are several historic LV maps that *seem* to show the LV going straight into Philadelphia!
hence the confusion..
but it was only LV passenger service that went into Philly, via the Reading roadroad..
but the LV itself never went into Phildelphia on its own tracks..not even close.

Here is a LV map that seems to show a LV line straight into Philadelphia:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_25geSN9XcnM/TNmsi ... ad-map.jpg
but thats really not accurate..that line into Philly is actually the Reading Railroad, not the LV.

and another..this one was actually published by the LV itself, in a passenger timetable, from 1930:
http://njrails.tripod.com/20th_Century/ ... p_1930.jpg
but notice the line to Philly says "Reading Co."..the LV offered passenger service into and out of Phildelphia, but not over its own trackage.
notice on the bottom of the map it also seems to imply the LV goes straight to Chicago! ;)
which of course it never did..it was "through freight" service to Chicago, via other railroads..

this kind of "creative mapping" was very common, lots of railroads did it..
it simply shows where LV freight and passenger service can end up..its not *technically* incorrect, if you are a passenger or a freight customer! ;)
its only "incorrect" when it comes to actual trackage owned by the railroad..

LV map showing all actual LV trackage.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos/LVRR_bigmap.jpg

Scot
 #950751  by Bethlehem Jct.
 
Another point of confusion for those unfamiliar with the Lehigh Valley was that they maintained offices in Philadelphia until WWII or shortly after. Their public timetables and Official Guide pages listed their New York offices at 143 Liberty St. and their Philly office address. Couple that with a map that seemingly showed a LVRR line to Philadelphia and the confusion is easy to understand. The Philly personnel were moved to the Bethlehem office on Brighton St. which was listed in later timetables and Official Guides.

I wish I could cite specific dates for the office relocation, but I can't.
 #950753  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
Also don't forget that the Lehigh Valley was controlled by the Pennsylvania R.R. Bethlehem Steel used to get iron shipments from the Philly docks. The Reading brought it up the Perkiomen branch and later via the city of Reading through Allentown. But the Pennsy also shipped ore to the Bethlehem. They would take it up the Bel-Del and interchange with the Lehigh Valley. It's possible that may be a source of some of the confusion.
 #950787  by Minneapolitan
 
scottychaos wrote:Here is a LV map that seems to show a LV line straight into Philadelphia:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_25geSN9XcnM/TNmsi ... ad-map.jpg
but thats really not accurate..that line into Philly is actually the Reading Railroad, not the LV.

That's exactly the map that got me confused! I've never heard of the Lehigh Valley in Philly, and then I find this strange map. So I guess I'm right to question this oddity.

scottychaos wrote:LV map showing all actual LV trackage.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos/LVRR_bigmap.jpg

Two things: First, great map! I'm guessing that was made by you. Well done. I love the detail.

Second, what do the green and red colors signify?
 #950796  by scottychaos
 
56-57 wrote:Two things: First, great map! I'm guessing that was made by you. Well done. I love the detail.

Second, what do the green and red colors signify?


yep, thats my map! (well, not the underlying base map obviously, thats a historic LV map) but I drew in the colors..
that "big map" I posted is meant to go with this page:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos ... m_map.html

(I guess I shouldnt post the map out of that context! ;)
Green lines are LV tracks still in use today, Red is LV tracks still in place, but not in active use..
track that isnt red or green, no longer exists..tracks are torn up.

I know that map is somewhat out of date now, and needs some updating..there was a recent post where someone offered up the corrections that need to be made..I need to find that post again and update the map! ;) but I have a lot of other webpage updating to do too, so its low on the list..right now im having problems with my webpage host..I have to go and change a TON of links! :( if you are clicking around my webpages and you suddenly see "Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)" if you to change "gold" to "1stclass" (without the quotes) then it will work..its going to take me weeks to fix all those links..

Scot
 #952900  by delvyrails
 
Was it in Archer's book or elsewhere that it is written that originally LVRR was a Philadelphia-sponsored institution with its long-time headquarters there. The HQ was moved out by Morgan after the 1893 debacle. Indeed, when the P&R suddenly got control of the North Penn system and its Bethlehm-Philadelphia line in 1879, the LVRR was left without a friendly Philadelphia connection to deliver its coal.

For a time, they arranged for canal delivery of coal to the city, but they planned to build a rail branch to Philly which was never built. I'd love to know the alignment of that never- built line!
 #961040  by RDGCrusader
 
I can't remember where, but I saw a picture of one of the old ticket offices at Reading Terminal, and in the ticket office was a rack with a collection of time tables, including some of the Lehigh Valley. Also, I saw a poster of the LV's passenger services in a book I have that reads: ALL TRAINS USE COMMUNIPAW TERMINAL IN NEW YORK AND READING TERMINAL IN PHILADELPHIA. And below that there's a map of their system including a leg to Philadelphia. Given that plus what everyone else has said, it seems like the Lehigh Valley had trackage rights down the Bethlehem Branch into Reading Terminal.
 #961312  by Bethlehem Jct.
 
RDGCrusader wrote:I can't remember where, but I saw a picture of one of the old ticket offices at Reading Terminal, and in the ticket office was a rack with a collection of time tables, including some of the Lehigh Valley. Also, I saw a poster of the LV's passenger services in a book I have that reads: ALL TRAINS USE COMMUNIPAW TERMINAL IN NEW YORK AND READING TERMINAL IN PHILADELPHIA. And below that there's a map of their system including a leg to Philadelphia. Given that plus what everyone else has said, it seems like the Lehigh Valley had trackage rights down the Bethlehem Branch into Reading Terminal.
"Seems like" being the key words. They offered through car service (coaches and Pullman) to and from Philadelphia via Bethlehem. At one time, the Reading and LV jointly ran an overnight train with sleepers from Reading Terminal to Wilkes-Barre, but all trains on the Bethlehem Branch were operated by the Reading.

The Lehigh Valley schedules in Reading Terminal make sense because most of the Reading's through sleeping car service to/from Reading Terminal ran via their connection with the LV in Bethlehem. Trough cars aside, passengers routinely transferred between Reading and Lehigh Valley trains at Bethlehem. LV schedules listed the phone numbers for the ticket offices at Reading Terminal, North Broad Station, Wayne Jct. and Jenkintown.
 #967774  by HarryE
 
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:Also don't forget that the Lehigh Valley was controlled by the Pennsylvania R.R. Bethlehem Steel used to get iron shipments from the Philly docks. The Reading brought it up the Perkiomen branch and later via the city of Reading through Allentown. But the Pennsy also shipped ore to the Bethlehem. They would take it up the Bel-Del and interchange with the Lehigh Valley. It's possible that may be a source of some of the confusion.
Do you know if Bethlehem Steel received any iron ore shipments from the following mines: The Chateaugay Mine near Plattsburgh, NY possibly via the D&H to the Lehigh Valley, the Tahawus Mine also in the Adirondacks and the New Leonard Mine in Rockaway Township, NJ? All of these mines operated into the 1980s.
 #968744  by CAR_FLOATER
 
Probably none of the above, because Chateaugay Mine was owned by Republic Steel, Tahawus Mine was Titanium and Lead mining, and New Leonard Mine production was sent to Allen Wood Steel.

Beth Steel had their own mines (Joanna, PA, Cornwall, mines in Chile, Cuba via boat from NY Harbor/Claremont terminal) and the Great Lakes via the PRR/LV Mt. Carmel connection.

CF
 #968871  by HarryE
 
Thanks Car Floater. I never heard of the "Allen Wood Steel Co." Interesting. The Tahawus Mine produced "ilmenite" ore which was mostly magnetite (iron ore), which was separated and concentrated at the mine. It contained no lead although small quantities of vanadium were also found. The titanium dioxide ore went to National Lead's Sayreville, NJ facility by train (Lehigh Valley?). Later on in the 50's, it went to Allegheny Ludlum in Watervliet, NY for processing into titanium metal, not titanium pigment. I still don't know where the iron ore concentrate went.
 #968890  by JimBoylan
 
Allen Wood Steel Co. may be more familiar to you because of their railroad, the Upper Merion & Plymouth, connecting those townships near Conshohocken, Pa.
 #969305  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
HarryE wrote:Do you know if Bethlehem Steel received any iron ore shipments from the following mines: The Chateaugay Mine near Plattsburgh, NY possibly via the D&H to the Lehigh Valley
My most sincere apologies for the delayed response...

My hard drive crashed in July and it was some time until I got a new computer... Anyway, I think Car_Floater is correct. Unfortunately, I could have gotten a definative answer two weeks ago. I know a former Steel office worker who gets together with ex-coworkers every year around Labor Day Weekend. I'll speak to him the next time I see him and find out which mines he can remember that they owned.

I can tell you that he remembers that the president of the mining divsion had a Brazilian mahogany desk with an in-layed leather blotter in his Marin Tower(s) office... Any wonder why they went out of business?