Largest still standing NYC station

Anyone know whether or not the Buffalo Central Terminal is the largest standing NYC station left? Either height wise, or by square footage.

What about Grand Central?

Some quick googling..

Buffalo Central Terminal:

The office tower is 271 feet high.
The concourse measures 225′x66′ and is 58.5′ high through the center vault, and 63.5 feet at the domed ends.
The building is 523,000 square feet.

https://buffalocentralterminal.org/faqs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grand Central:
I cant seem to find the total square footage of the station!
but I found this:
http://www.clicktop10.com/2013/08/top-1 ... the-world/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Grand Central is the largest railroad station in the world! by number of platforms.
Also found this: "The landmark totals more than 8 million square feet on 22 acres "
which is probably counting the square feet of the whole terminal footprint, not the main building itself..

but still..its pretty obvious the "Largest still standing NYC station" is Grand Central.

Scot

Grand Central Terminal (in New york City) is sort of a "Union" station-- the New York Central shared it with the New Haven. So maybe Terminalfanatic thought it didn't count as a "NYC station." … Technically, Buffalo's station was also shared: at least one other railroad (I think the Pennsylvania, which had a branch that reached Buffalo) operated passenger trains out of it. But Buffalo's station was overwhelmingly New York Central, whereas GCT's trains were more nearly evenly divided.

Commodore Vanderbilt would roll over in his grave if there were even a suggestion that GCT was anything but a New York Central station. The NYNH&H was ALWAYS a tenant in the station, and ALWAYS relegated to second-class status. Yes, in terms of usage, it was shared, but the raison d'etre for GCT was always all about the NYC brand.

New Haven didn't reach Grand Central over its own rails either. It used 11.8 miles of track rights from Woodlawn (JO) to GCT. However...

Back in 1902 when Central was planning the new terminal, today's terminal, management decided it was too much money for Central to go it alone. They insisted the New Haven -- which supplied roughly 40% of the trains into Grand Central -- kick in for about 40% of the investment. Was New Haven a part-owner? In the 1920s the ICC said no: it would not allow New Haven to add any of its GCT investment to its asset base (for rate making purposes) because it said the NH was a tenant. That the contribution to the new terminal was an assessment by the landlord (NYC) and not an investment. (Rates were calculated in part on "return on investment.") Around 1960 Alfred Perlman and George Alpert had quite a fight about it . It was litigated and a U.S. federal court said, yes New Haven was a part owner. If you help pay for it, you're an owner. Perlman called the court decision crazy but that's the way it was.

It really made no difference because NH always got a share of the realty property profits based on its share of the investment cost. The reason Alpert wanted to establish ownership was, like his predecessors in the 1920s, George Alpert wanted to use the road's investment in the Terminal as an asset but for a different reason. Alpert wanted a bigger asset base because that was what financial institutions used when deciding on loan requests.

But having said all that...we all know it was a New York Central station!

Ocala Mike, Tommy Meehan--
That's what I like about Railroad.net forums! I post a tiny comment… and learn lots from the replies! Massive return on small investment for me. Thanks!

Allen Hazen wrote:Grand Central Terminal (in New york City) is sort of a "Union" station-- the New York Central shared it with the New Haven. So maybe Terminalfanatic thought it didn't count as a "NYC station." … Technically, Buffalo's station was also shared: at least one other railroad (I think the Pennsylvania, which had a branch that reached Buffalo) operated passenger trains out of it. But Buffalo's station was overwhelmingly New York Central, whereas GCT's trains were more nearly evenly divided.

Grand Central Terminal was wholly owned by New York Central, the New Haven was a tenant that paid rent. It was an NYC facility through and through. Same with Buffalo Central Terminal, wholly owned and operated by NYC.

You're thinking of arrangements elsewhere in the midwest where several railroads would pool resources, create a neutral "Union Station Company" to own and operate a union station facility. BCT and GCT do not follow that model at all.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:Grand Central Terminal was wholly owned by New York Central, the New Haven was a tenant that paid rent. It was an NYC facility through and through...

I don't want to simply say I disagree with the above, that's not going to get us anywhere.

What I will do is paste some snippets from some news articles. The first pasted below was written in January 1960 when the New Haven won its Biltmore Hotel case. This was an 'air rights' property that NH claimed it had an ownership interest in. In 1958 when the Biltmore's rental agreement came due, Central updated it, sent it to New Haven to be signed and then, to the surprise of NYC, the New Haven refused to sign. Because, George Alpert explained, the NH had not been a party to the negotiation. It was presented with a fait accompli. In fact the New Haven then issued an eviction notice to the Biltmore on the grounds it, the New Haven, had not renewed lease and as co-owner it had that right and would not waive it. That put it in the courts as Alpert intended.



Now we go two weeks later and changes have been made. This is the announcement of the agreement to build what became the Pan Am Building (today it's the MetLife Building). Note in the story the realty subsidiary is acting as agent for both NYC and NH. There's a photo with the article that I'm not pasting showing George Alpert -- not Alfred Perlman! -- signing the building agreement with developer Erwin Wolfson.



Final one. For some reason I can't find any stories about the final court ruling that essentially recognized New Haven had an ownership stake in GCT -- but I will find it -- but here we are in March 1963 after the ruling. This was the announcement of a joint NYC-NYNH&H development project on E. 46th Street and look at how the New Haven is described. The one problem I have with this news article is, I think it is describing how a court interpreted the 1957 agreement, not the original agreement.

I still can't find the court decision from the 1960s upholding the New Haven's claim of a proprietary interest in Grand Central. Below is a U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding the ruling of a court-appointed Special Master in the proceeding regarding the value of the New Haven that Penn Central was to pay. The New Haven's trustees wanted to be paid for their interest in Grand Central and the Supreme Court upheld them.

Based on his study of the complex contractual relations between the two parties, of which we have touched above only on the salient features, the Special Master concluded that Central and New Haven had entered into a 'joint venture or partnership * * * of some kind.' The Special Master dismissed as untenable both Central's argument that by virtue of its sole ownership of the fee it would acquire full right, title, and interest in the Terminal properties upon the cessation of New Haven's train service, and the bondholders' argument that as a partner the debtor had an undivided one-half interest in the fee. In 1907, when the parties entered into the basic agreement, Central had had title to the realty, and New Haven had had a perpetual right to the use of the tracks by force of state legislation. New Haven thus had 'not come to the bargaining table in 1907 in the posture of a supplicant.' The two railroads together had joined in the design and construction of a Terminal complex greater than either needed for its own requirements; they had undertaken a 'major real estate development to extend over a period of many years'; and to those ends they had provided for a sharing of the Terminal expenses on the basis of their respective car usage, along with a committal of Terminal revenues to the operation of the project. As the Special Master put it, 'There can be no question that by mutual agreement these revenues from all of the Grand Central Terminal properties were pooled to apply on the fixed charges and maintenance and operational costs of the Terminal. Link

Tommy hit the nail on the head about GCT. Here is a link to a 1916 article from "The Railroad Worker" about the GCT Gateman and their effort to unionize. It explains the arrangement with the NYC and New Haven perfectly, as well as the way that the Terminal was operated: http://books.google.com/books?id=OkU1AQ ... t.&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, if you read the 1946 book "Grand Central" by David Marshall it explains the arrangement. He frequently mentions the "neutral" terminal officials such as the Terminal Manager and the Stationmaster. Also note the NYC employee timetables covering the Electric Division (and in the 1960s the expanded Hudson Division which took in the Electric Division) - the front cover of them always read "The New York Central Railroad Company AND Grand Central Terminal." Also, into the last days of the NYC, the Assistant Stationmasters and Gateman at GCT wore hat badges that read "Grand Central Terminal," not the standard NYC hat badges that the employees at many other major NYC stations wore (at least Detroit, Toledo, Buffalo, Syracuse, Schenectady, Albany, and Springfield, MA from old photos I've seen).

Despite the interesting Terminal Company arrangement, I think this very debate shows that GCT is overwhelmingly identified as an NYC station, as opposed to famous Union Stations around the country (ie. Washington, D.C., Chicago, L.A., New Orleans) that aren't identified with a single railroad.

Well square footage and platform numbers aside. Is the Buffalo Central Terminal at least the tallest standing NYC structure?

scottychaos wrote:Some quick googling..

Buffalo Central Terminal:

The office tower is 271 feet high.
The concourse measures 225′x66′ and is 58.5′ high through the center vault, and 63.5 feet at the domed ends.
The building is 523,000 square feet.

https://buffalocentralterminal.org/faqs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...

I wondered about the Michigan Central Station in Detroit. That's another big one but apparently just a bit smaller than the Central Terminal in Buffalo.

Michigan Central Station

• The office tower is 232 feet high
• The waiting room is 97'x230' and has a 65' high arched ceiling.
• The square footage is 500,000

Link

Tommy Meehan wrote:
I wondered about the Michigan Central Station in Detroit. That's another big one but apparently just a bit smaller than the Central Terminal in Buffalo.

Michigan Central Station

• The office tower is 232 feet high
• The waiting room is 97'x230' and has a 65' high arched ceiling.
• The square footage is 500,000

Link

I wondered about the MC Station in Detroit when I read the thread earlier today......thanks for the stats on it.

Darn shame how derelict both BCT and the Michigan Central building became. Too bad we can't wave a magic-wand
and make them both beautiful again......sadly that would be probably their only chances.

Charlie