Lake Shore Limited

It may be the business class cars will go to another train. Amtrak is juggling equipment with most trains needing eith 3,4 or 6 car of the same type to install that car on any train. The other possibility is that that the BC cars need some required definite date servicing like brake COT&S.

From Facebook; certainly doesn't seem to make much sense:

My bro in law who drives Amtrak trains told me that Amtrak is talking about ideas is to eliminate 448/449 then replace with one of Empire Service train that will run from Niagara Falls and it'll run all way to Boston, reason: To boost ridership and create more revenue and less deadhead moves like they do normally... If this is gonna happen, 48/49 will just run normally no more hour and 15 min wait at ALB for 448/449 once for all. Also, I can see possibility it'll have sleepers and cafe on this new route and a business class car. If this is done, I'll surely go buy ticket because one seat ride = more ridership.

Sleeper to Niagara Falls? I kind of doubt it. How about this . . . separate new train . . . Boston - Niagara Falls - Detroit - Chicago through Canada. Now you got me excited!

I recall seeing, but can't find it now, an idea/plan/needs statement from a coalition of state-level rail advocacy groups for additional train services on the Lake Shore Limited route timed for convenience at intermediate locations, not at the end points, because while the LSL may be well placed for CHI-NYC or CHI-BOS traffic, its not well placed for intermediate service needs like (say) Cleveland-Buffalo or Rochester-Erie or Toledo-Erie.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:57 am From Facebook; certainly doesn't seem to make much sense:

My bro in law who drives Amtrak trains told me that Amtrak is talking about ideas is to eliminate 448/449 then replace with one of Empire Service train that will run from Niagara Falls and it'll run all way to Boston, reason: To boost ridership and create more revenue and less deadhead moves like they do normally... If this is gonna happen, 48/49 will just run normally no more hour and 15 min wait at ALB for 448/449 once for all. Also, I can see possibility it'll have sleepers and cafe on this new route and a business class car. If this is done, I'll surely go buy ticket because one seat ride = more ridership.

On paper this seems like a great idea, although with the need to switch engines at ALB regardless (dual power to enter Penn Station), I wonder what the time savings would actually be. It is interesting to note that Amtrak's website is listing business class as "sold out" for 48 (as opposed to 448) for post July 2 dates, following the cancellation of business class service. This may just be a glitch, or a sign of things to come. Here's hoping...

According to 2019 data, Chicago-Boston was not one of the top 10 most frequent routes, but it does rank in the top 5 for revenue. Will passengers be OK with a sleeper to ALB and then switching to coach or business class for the remainder? Clearly having business class on a Niagara-Boston train would be key to still enticing sleeper purchases.

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 18.4%C2%A2

I wonder if this new theoretical train would drop a sleeper at Albany - although again, you're losing time savings.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:34 am Sleeper to Niagara Falls? I kind of doubt it. How about this . . . separate new train . . . Boston - Niagara Falls - Detroit - Chicago through Canada. Now you got me excited!

I've suggested splitting 48/49 and 448/449 into two separate trains for awhile.
48/49 gets renamed the 21st Century Express and NYS ponies up for more money to market NYS heavily on it (and provides sleepers built here in NYS).

A separate train from Boston would take over the 448/449 (and take the name Lake Shore Limited) and run on a slightly different schedule stopping at different cities through NYS.

Route this through Canada and Detroit and you've got a decent looking alternative. (even if you end up initially having to do it as a sealed train and avoiding customs for now).

I'm all for it.

Is a direct through route through Canada still in place? Using the present VIA route (Hamilton, London, Chatham, Windsor) would seriously lengthen the transit time compared with the old Canada Southern. And I think calling it the 21st Century Limited would make George H. Daniels turn over in his grave, implying that it's an improvement over his 20th Century Limited, which, given present circumstances, it certainly would not be. I think the name Lake Shore should be kept for the train that actually runs over the former Lake Shore route via Cleveland and Toledo. Maybe Wolverine would do -- the previous one made good time over the CS.

We did some estimating on this a while ago. I figured a train using VIA lines via London was longer mileage but due to the fact that the VIA track is in excellent condition and the speeds are high, the schedule would be about the same endpoint to endpoint. The train would be using fast tracks almost all of the journey including the higher-speed Empire Route and Wolverine line, and would avoid all of the freight congestion through Ohio south of the Lake.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:56 pm Is a direct through route through Canada still in place? Using the present VIA route (Hamilton, London, Chatham, Windsor) would seriously lengthen the transit time compared with the old Canada Southern. And I think calling it the 21st Century Limited would make George H. Daniels turn over in his grave, implying that it's an improvement over his 20th Century Limited, which, given present circumstances, it certainly would not be. I think the name Lake Shore should be kept for the train that actually runs over the former Lake Shore route via Cleveland and Toledo. Maybe Wolverine would do -- the previous one made good time over the CS.

Apparently not only is it, but I've seen rumors that CP has been open to allowing passenger trains via the Michigan Central Railway Tunnel.

Edit to add link:
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news ... tep-closer

I guess it's more than a rumor.

The problem with using CP is VIA uses almost exclusively CN, so any stations on the route would only be served by Amtrak. There is a connection in Windsor from CP to CN that would require a short backup move to access the VIA station, or Windsor could be skipped. The connection does not look anything like high speed rail, but some upgrading could be done.

Greg Moore wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:31 pm

Apparently not only is it, but I've seen rumors that CP has been open to allowing passenger trains via the Michigan Central Railway Tunnel.

Edit to add link:
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news ... tep-closer

I guess it's more than a rumor.
[/quote]

Right. I forgot about CP wanting to earn brownie points for help with their merger -- maybe the iron is hot and now is the time to strike. Are there any complications around Niagara Falls in getting onto the CP?

Looking at the map (and there's a nifty interactive Canadian Rail Atlas I found), getting from the CN border crossing onto the westbound CP near Niagara is a mess; those two lines really DID NOT want to interchange, did they? I see three possibilities:

1. After Buffalo-Depew, the train turns south at the river and crosses just north of the Peace Bridge. This is the most direct existing connection to CP and would require no new building except possibly passenger-quality upgrades (and whatever it takes to staff a new passenger border crossing).
2. Cross at Niagara as the Maple Leaf does now, then add a WB CN -> WB CP connection to the partial junction that exists in Hamilton. (Note that I'm using WB to indicate "away from Niagara Falls"; I have no idea what the ETT says.)
3. Stick to CN, which does have a good wye in Hamilton, and potentially make some set of existing VIA stops until just after Chatham, where CN and CP cross in a diamond that currently has no interchange tracks. That diamond would have to be upgraded to allow the movement toward the tunnel, but that seems straightforward. This route would keep the train on existing passenger tracks from Niagara to Chatham except for that wye to allow the direct movement from Niagara towards Windsor.

So, pick your poison: roundabout routing in Niagara to get on CP quicker (and CP is also a much less direct route west in that area than CN is), or work with CN to stay on their line until it's time to cut over to the bridge.

Can passengers still board The Lake Shore Limited from the pre-Moynihan waiting area or is boarding now from Moynihan? I haven't been to NYP in a while.

Does the NYP section have a lounge car or is that car on the Boston section?

Thanks for any information.

BAR
Williamsburg, VA

You can board any train from the old waiting area. Moynihan is much nicer but if the old spot is more convenient you can.