Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

The first 'transcon' RR was built far more quickly. Without today's technology, just men and horses or mules.

No OSHA (many workers died) or DEP. And it was very poorly done in a race for the land grants and prize money. I'm not saying it couldn't go faster. It certainly could. But as far as the political class goes, the money is far better off in their pockets, and mismanagement such as engines and rolling stock being parked in a flood zone during a 100 year storm is no skin off their nose.

Sure, it was a lot more dangerous. But even with adjustments for safe practices, I'm guessing a 'professional' railroad team could do this in months, maybe a year. NJT seems to want to stretch this out as long as possible, perhaps to delay the need for staff and equipment.

This is NJ after all, one of the most corrupt states in the nation. In the last ten years (not even), a state like Florida was able to get a high(er) speed railroad of nearly 200 miles up and running, while we're still here speculating about a project that will be lucky to be a quarter of that size.

It's pathetic. It's not about the unions, safe practices, etc; other places have all that and still move faster for far cheaper.

In Florida, Brightline is a company doing its own project - and some parts have been delayed because of local government interference. In NJ, it's a grossly incompetent government entity that clearly does not want this project to happen anytime soon - because they would need more crews and equipment.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 6:40 pm In Florida, Brightline is a company doing its own project - and some parts have been delayed because of local government interference. In NJ, it's a grossly incompetent government entity that clearly does not want this project to happen anytime soon - because they would need more crews and equipment.

I'd like some proof of this, because unless someone at NJ Transit has said this, I highly doubt that.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 6:40 pm In Florida, Brightline is a company doing its own project - and some parts have been delayed because of local government interference. In NJ, it's a grossly incompetent government entity that clearly does not want this project to happen anytime soon - because they would need more crews and equipment.

Maybe it's time NJT outsources to a private company or something. Not even Amtrak is this bad! Compared to the service other government-run services like MNR/MTA/LIRR offer, NJT is really lacking.

Roadgeek Adam wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:37 pm I'd like some proof of this, because unless someone at NJ Transit has said this, I highly doubt that.

I mean, NJT has been talking about this project, local interest groups have been talking about this project, hell, the President of the United States has been talking this project. If NJT can't stop putting their thumbs up their a** despite all that, something is up. It's probably they don't want to spend money maintaining a line that will get mediocre numbers at best, which is reasonable. But if they truly think that, they should just say so instead of wasting even more money

Roadgeek Adam wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:37 pm

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 6:40 pm In Florida, Brightline is a company doing its own project - and some parts have been delayed because of local government interference. In NJ, it's a grossly incompetent government entity that clearly does not want this project to happen anytime soon - because they would need more crews and equipment.

I'd like some proof of this, because unless someone at NJ Transit has said this, I highly doubt that.

They mentioned NOTHING of the rest of the project in that newsletter, only Andover. They are taking and have taken several years just to announce the hope that in 4 years 8000 feet plus a rehab of a tunnel may be finished. We've heard no plans for getting more equipment to cover the route extension to Andover.

JohnFromJersey wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 9:53 pm

photobug56 wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 6:40 pm In Florida, Brightline is a company doing its own project - and some parts have been delayed because of local government interference. In NJ, it's a grossly incompetent government entity that clearly does not want this project to happen anytime soon - because they would need more crews and equipment.

Maybe it's time NJT outsources to a private company or something. Not even Amtrak is this bad! Compared to the service other government-run services like MNR/MTA/LIRR offer, NJT is really lacking.

Roadgeek Adam wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 8:37 pm I'd like some proof of this, because unless someone at NJ Transit has said this, I highly doubt that.

I mean, NJT has been talking about this project, local interest groups have been talking about this project, hell, the President of the United States has been talking this project. If NJT can't stop putting their thumbs up their a** despite all that, something is up. It's probably they don't want to spend money maintaining a line that will get mediocre numbers at best, which is reasonable. But if they truly think that, they should just say so instead of wasting even more money

LIRR is, IMHO, one of the worst run commuter railroads in the US, if not globally. ESA is a very long time overdue, and way over budget. Though I concede that the 3rd track, done under Design/Build rules, is on schedule and budget, though their communications regarding poles (those very tall eyesores) has been very poor. And now, several months before completion of 3rd track, and maybe even ESA, they have said NOTHING about how people from diesel country will access GCT, nothing of their thoughts about schedule changes - at least partially because with such a short time left they are just beginning to think about it. FYI, a PR person from LIRR will be talking to LIRCC about it for a few minutes tomorrow, but I don't know if he has any actual knowledge on the subject.

As to the entire project, a lot of people have been waiting about half a century for this.

At this rate, we'll be waiting another half a century before this is ever done.

That soon?

I spent a lot of time commuting from Suffern to Hoboken on NJT. Earlier, when I was a kid in the 50s we had a summer place near the Lackawanna's Boonton station. I also lived on the Harlem Line in Westchester for a while.
The Boonton Line had an express that ran nonstop from Boonton to Hoboken in 40 minutes. Of course, that line is gone, sacrificed to the Lackawanna's financial crunch and the construction of I80.

Metro North is kind of like the CIA; they do what they do, take it or leave it. However, the Harlem Line's electric MU service was as fast in the 90s as it was in 1913. (It couldn't go faster because the limits for a local service are constrained by the limits of acceleration the passengers can tolerate; you don't want standees falling over.) NJT actually. seemed willing to listen to passengers. On two occasions they actually adopted suggestions I made. But their ability to run a railroad efficiently seems quite limited. The electric MU trains on the M&E were much faster in the fifties than they are today. The Gladstone Branch ran faster in 1900 in steam days than it does now with electric power. (yes passenger counts are higher but that is also true for the Harlem Line.) The expresses from Suffern were maybe the fastest on NJT--that was one reason we moved there. But it seemed that every timetable added a minute or two to the schedule.
I have heard it said that NJT managers get bonuses dependent on on-time performance, so their approach is to slow schedules to make the on-time performance better. I have no idea if this is true but they certainly act as if it was true.

NJT's projects take a long time (a very long time) to complete. The extension to Andover doesn't make much sense unless it is part of an extension to Pennsylvania. For that matter, the trip to Andover will be unbearably slow for a daily commute. But NJT seems to have no interest in running faster trains. (I guess East Side Access wins the booby prize for years delayed and billions over budget, but at least when it's done it will be tremendously useful for Long Island customers. Andover's usefulness? Pretty minimal.)

We wonder why PANYNJ created the JFK Air Train that doesn't go to Manhattan and is a PITA to use. Back in 1990, the then chair of the PA said to the audience at a Sam Schwartz infrastructure conference words to the effect that no one would want to take a train to an airport. When Air Train was designed ignoring calls to use the Rockaway Beach? line, because it offered so many advantages including direct connect to Penn and one decade or two or three GCT, it was clear that the last thing PA wanted to do was to prove him wrong. Too many people in these agencies could care less about moving people. One NYCTA conductor, who was violating policy by closing subway doors after 2 or 3 seconds, told me it wasn't his job to move people, just to move trains. I got the feeling that mediocrity was taught them as part of their conductor training. NJT has long exuded an attitude, IMHO, that transporting commuters is incidental to their primary purpose of collecting salaries. Any effort to make commutes easier is something they seem to have little interest in.

The Lackawanna's frontline employees had pride in their railroad. The trains were old but ran on time. As for NJT, I think the managers are the ones who don't care. I just looked at their website where they talk about capital plans. They are just PR doubletalk. Incidentally I could find no mention of the Andover extension, although I know it is being worked on and there was mention of it in the media.
It's always seemed to me that NJT thought of itself as a bus company that also had to run some trains.

Despite all the slides, NJT is run by the bunch who didn't bother to get the trains out of the way of Superstorm Sandy. The other transit agencies did react in advance to the storm and so had much less damage than NJT. As far as I can tell, NJT had no plan at all in place to limit damage from the storm. Incidentally, they still seem to be in the design phase on many projects to improve "resilience" to future storms. And why does it take years and years to fill in the Long Slip ditch? i mean, it's just a ditch. Why is filling it with dirt, or rocks, or concrete a multi-year, maybe multi-generation, project?

NJT used to have people who cared about the Cutoff, but I'd guess that they are all gone. The mention of the Cutoff was in the link someone provided several days ago.

I'm not a fan of NYCTA management, but... Some parts of the subway system simply were not easy to protect. Some probably could have been but were not. But after Sandy, the A train line out to Far Rockaway was in 'tatters', and needed massive work. First thing they barged a couple cars out there to act as a shuttle. And they did an amazing job of rebuilding the line, making it better than it had been. And at least they tried, before the storm, to get cars to safe locations. NJT parking a fleet in a flood zone was beyond my comprehension. Of course, I remember that LIRR used to have a habit of parking equipment in flood zones. Parts of the 'Bitanic' were said to have been underwater for a while - before they went into service.

As to NJT, I think after Chris Christie arrived, any manager who gave a hoot probably left in disgust. Not because he nuked the Train to Macy's Cellar, but because he diverted so much money to other things.