Kerosene Boilers on Electrics

I was reading an article written about 1920, briefly describing the flash type kerosene boilers used on New Haven Electric Locomotives. I have the following questions.

a) Where typically were the kerosene tanks located and how were they filled?
b) How long did the New Haven use these kerosene fired boilers and was an electrical heating system developed to replace kerosene?
c) Did any of the freight locomotives have boilers?
d) Who manufactured the boilers, Babcock and Wilcox?

Diesel fuel was refered to as Kerosene before diesels become popular.
Kerosene is just a purer form of Diesel fuel.
The boilers in electric locomotives were flash type boilers or commonly called steam generators.

There is a BIG difference between flash boilers and steam generators. The 300's, 350's, 360's and first 5 150's had flash
boilers. These boilers had some of the characteristics of steam locomotive boilers and burned diesel fuel just like the steam
generators in the 370's, diesels and GG-1's among other things.
The fireman had to pretty much stay with the flash boiler at all times while it was in operation because the water feed was
manually controlled by steam to the water pump (air when firing up) and the atomizer again steam except when firing up.
There were some pluses to these flash boilers though and the biggest one was that once steam pressure was up, the boiler
would continue to supply steam whether the motor was energized or not. I ran them for my first few years as a fireman
until the New Haven retired the last of these fine motors.
OH yes, we lit the boiler by wrapping waste around a poker, dipping it in fuel and lighting it with a match, put it in to the
firebox, open the air to the atomizer and the fuel oil supply, generally they lit without much problem but we had to be sure
that the boiler had no gases in it from previous use especially if it was still pretty warm. It was a challenge but I liked these
things. On the 300's they were in the center of the carbody while in the 350's, 360's and 150's they were in the no. 2 end
cab. Even the cab heat on the 350's and 360's came from the steam supply so even if we did not need steam for the train,
if the cab was cold we had to fire the boiler for cab heat. We got plenty of cab heat from them though.
Steam generators were pretty much automatic once you got them going and turned the steam into the train provided they
were working right but when they weren't, they were a royal pain in the back side. The very best steam generators that I
ever operated were the ones on the GG-1's, they gave us very little trouble and would heat all outdoors.
Noel Weaver

Thanks All

Obviously these fired systems proved quite successful well into the Twentieth Century; nevertheless I’m surprised that electric locomotives could not generate steam or at least hot water with usage of the current that they were receiving. I guess the technology would eventually lead to the individual HVAC systems for each passenger car powered mostly from electricity from the locomotive.

chnhrr wrote:Thanks All

Obviously these fired systems proved quite successful well into the Twentieth Century; nevertheless I’m surprised that electric locomotives could not generate steam or at least hot water with usage of the current that they were receiving. I guess the technology would eventually lead to the individual HVAC systems for each passenger car powered mostly from electricity from the locomotive.

They used diesel to fire them because if the juice went out, you still got heat for the pax in winter.

- A

The steam generator quit very fast once power went out as it took massive amounts of battery power and atomizer air.
reason for fuel fired was simply the gaps in overhead at bridges and such, as refiring a steam generaor once hot , had to wait X amount of minutes to vent the boiler.
the Steam generaor remain lit traveling through such powe interuptions.

DutchRailnut wrote:The steam generator quit very fast once power went out as it took massive amounts of battery power and atomizer air.
reason for fuel fired was simply the gaps in overhead at bridges and such, as refiring a steam generaor once hot , had to wait X amount of minutes to vent the boiler.
the Steam generaor remain lit traveling through such powe interuptions.

Steam generators would stay running through gaps etc and on the jets through the air gap at Cos Cob BUT the loss of the
air compressor in such cases for any length of time would result in to air pressure for the atomizer and the steam generator
would not operate under such conditions. In addition on the jets and FL-9's too the steam generator running off the battery
would not stay running too long as it would run the battery down.
On the GG-1's the steam generator had an AC motor and the loss of AC power would result in the steam generator shutting
down immediately and it had to be manually reset and started, this could be a pain until we found a way to beat it and
eventually they rewired the controls to prevent the shut down for short intervals.
The GG-1's were a good locomotive and the steam generators on them were the best ever built in my opinion but they were
not designed to be operated to New Haven with our wire conditions, gaps, clearances etc. Eventually Penn Central made
some modifications to both the GG-1's and to the wires and clearances and we had no further problems with them after that.
Noel Weaver

Kerosene and diesel oil are distinctly different fuels. Kerosene has NO lubricity whatsoever. If you use it to run a diesel motor you will destroy the fuel injection pump, since it relies on the fuel it is pumping to lubricate itself, and the cylinders and plungers in the pump are ground to tolerances in the millionths of inches.

I never got to operate a flash boiler, but I spent a lot of time operating the steam generators, especially when I would cover the Danbury Steam heat job in the winter time. Blew the stack out of one starting it with a fusee through the sight glass opening...what a mess! But, the trains didn't freeze up.

Steam heat was a very interesting part of passenger railroading. I used to enjoy going to work in places like Stamford and New Haven when all of the ground steam lines were still in use on cold winter mornings. I worked in Stanford Tower when it was still heated from the steam plant on Atlantic Ave a quarter mile away and the trunk steam lines still went to the pasenger station. In the winter it was such a glorious sight, especially on the weekends when all of the steam heated equipment was in the freight yard and connected to ground steam lines. The coach yard in New Haven was equally picturesque, as was the whole Passengertation and shops area, which was all heated from the huge steam plant that was just knocked down within the last year or so. That plant burned bunker oil from the harbor that had to be heated to flow. Camefrom the same source as the famous "Mt. Tom Oil" that used to move in insulated tank cars out of Belle Dock every day.

Wow, what a lot of good memories!

In some films of the New Haven yard one sees steam coming out of the ground through what appears to be flexible connections. Was some of this steam pumped into insulated reserve tanks that were located in locomotives?

Just through visual observation, I am assuming that the electric MUs used an electric heating system individual to each car.

No the stean risers in yards were to Pre-heat passenger cars while laying over.
The steam came from the Boiler room wich was located opposite station in New Haven.

Many, many years ago I had a long conversation with a very senior NH engineer, I think it was George Ayers, who described an interesting experience he had many, many years before that when he was firing the old electrics with the flash boilers. He said that when it was very cold, trains originating in GCT would often freeze up by the time they got to NH, and that there would be more carmen than usual standing by with rosebuds to try and thaw the train out during the engine change. He said this was because the boilers were not very warm when first fired up for the trip, which I don't think they could do until they left the tunnel (Noel, correct me if I am wrong). Anyway, this guy was very curious and creative, and he came up with the idea of going to his train early and opening the steam trainline on the boiler while the train was still connected to GCT's very substantial ground steam supply, which apparently circulated steam throughtout the water in the boiler and made it very warm. He asked the carman not to disconnect the ground steam until the last possible minute before departure, so that the boiler would be scalding hot already when he was finally able to light it off. Aparently this made a very big difference in how the boiler performed for the trip to NH, and everyone was very surprised when they pulled into NH and the train was steaming like a kettle. Perhaps he was telling an impressionable young man an urban legend, but it certainly sounded plausible to me. Maybe Noel has heard this and can comment further...I'd certainly like to know if it was true or not.

Thanks MJRuef and DutchRailnut for the insight. That engineer MJRuef mentioned was smart. I was surprised that steam was not normally injected into insulated reserve tanks, especially since NH locomotives were stationed at major facilities with steam plants and the technology was available (i.e.: fireless locos). I guess with steam locomotives the concept was easy, except that heat exchangers were most likely used since high pressure steam was involved. MJRuef, I’m not familiar with the term "rosebuds". What were these devices?

I don't ever recall any freeze ups enroute to New Haven unless there was some sort of boiler, steam generator or connector
problem with the train. Steam generators came up to working pressure very quickly and IF they were working properly which
on the New Haven at least during the 60's was not always the case, there would not usually be any steam problems. In cold
weather the trains were almost always on steam at Grand Central Terminal and if the engine was coupled up, the steam
would also be fed into the engine's steam connector and pipes. Many times we would start the diesel engines after we went
past 59th Street and I would immediately go back and get the steam generator(s) running and steam turned into the train.
If there were any problems we would know by the time we got stopped at 125th Street.
The flash boilers took much longer to get up to steam pressure and in addition if the firebox was warm from a previous
firing, we had to make sure there were no gases in the firebox, we did this by opening the damper and leaving it open for a
bit before lighting up. I never had a problem lighting one of these things off but more than one fireman got injured (burnt)
because he did not bother to make sure the firebox was free of gases when it was warm from previous use. The flash boilers did a very good job of heating a train but they were not toys and we had to be careful with them just like the crews
had to be careful of the boilers on steam locomotives too.
Before somesoby asks, in the cold weather season the steam generators on the jets and diesels were kept running and steam
was turned into the steam lines as well to prevent any freeze ups. Just before we were ready to leave the pit, they would
fill up the water tanks. This applied to all locations except Grand Central Terminal, when the FL-9's still had immersion
heaters they would keep all of the stuff warm enough to prevent freezing. The emergency crew would also put the engines
on as many trains as possible well before departure and the car department would be right there to connect up the steam
and steam was then turned into the engine(s). With the motors that had flash boilers, they would be put on ground steam
at all locations including Grand Central when necessary to prevent freezeups.
Most freeze ups occurred either because somebody did not do their job or because of major steam problems with the
steam generator(s) or boilers enroute. There were a number of tricks that we used to keep a balky steam g enerator
running until we got to New Haven or whereever we were going. Some were legal and some were not legal but we kept the
cars warm and the people who were paying our wages comfortable. I spent more than one trip in the engine room of an
FL-9 trying to keep the thing running and got good and wet and dirty in the process.
Noel Weaver