Is there still a Fireman up front ?

On modern Amtrak locos, is there still an Engineer and Fireman in the cab, or is an engineer all that is required ?

On runs scheduled for six hours or more, the Labor Agreement calls for an Assistant Engineer to be assigned. This employee holds the same credentials regarding Rules qualifications and FRA Certification as does the Engineer.

Auto Train with Engine crew districts Lorton to Florence and Florence to Sanford is assigned an Assistant. The reason Boston Wash Corridor trains change Engineers at New York is to avoid having to make such assignment.

The position of Fireman was phased out from both Freight and Passenger classes of service pursuant to the UTU October 27, 1972 National Agreement.

Thanks Gilbert. As always, good information.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:The position of Fireman was phased out from both Freight and Passenger classes of service pursuant to the UTU October 27, 1972 National Agreement.

So who was the third cab seat officially for in "Dash-2" and newer locos?

USRailFan wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:The position of Fireman was phased out from both Freight and Passenger classes of service pursuant to the UTU October 27, 1972 National Agreement.

So who was the third cab seat officially for in "Dash-2" and newer locos?

Head end brakeman? Trainees? Supervisors taking an inspection trip?

The actual term is "Second Engineer". On 5/6, the trend has been to return to such operation. The 2005 closing of the GJT crewbase eliminated one-man SLC - HER and GJT - HER turns and the latest version of the Central Division management team is considering closing the LNK crewbase. The result would be two-man engine crews DEN - OMA and OMA - CHI.

Mr Hoghead, would you be willing to share if there is a Rate of Pay differential between Engineer and Second on Amtrak such as there was on the roads between Fireman and Engineer.

If there is little or no differential, I'm at a loss to understand how closing Bases at intermediate change points such as Helper will result in economies. Employee head count and the related costs such as H&W will not be reduced, you will need as many away-from-home hotel rooms either way, but maybe you can more effieiently manage the Extra Board with less number of Bases.

I haven't "touched this stuff" in close to thirty years; been away from the industry in any capacity for twenty six.

USRailFan wrote:So who was the third cab seat officially for in "Dash-2" and newer locos?

Same reason why most airline cockpits today have a jump-seat, even though the Flight Engineer position is nearly all but extinct.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I'm at a loss to understand how closing Bases at intermediate change points such as Helper will result in economies.

I assume that it is for the same reason that the military was hell bent to close bases even though it meant spending lots of money for clean-up, moving units, and in lost mission time during the move and reorganization time; every dime spent on "unneeded" infrastructure and duplicate administrative overhead is completely wasted money in productivity analysis. A second set of eyes and ears in the cab at least has the potential to add something useful to the operation, such as morale and safety. Besides, this being the railroad I am sure they they figure it is only a matter of time until they can get the work rules changed.

with the talk of more corridor type services ,and of getting states to pay for services , closing crew bases would be a mistake . Closing Lincoln for e.g , would not bode well for asking Nebraska to cough up some dough towards the running o the CZ. Also if something goes wrong , a relief crew is that much further away .

icgsteve wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I'm at a loss to understand how closing Bases at intermediate change points such as Helper will result in economies.

A second set of eyes and ears in the cab at least has the potential to add something useful to the operation, such as morale and safety. Besides, this being the railroad I am sure they they figure it is only a matter of time until they can get the work rules changed.

After 17 years in cab by myself (not long distance) My feeling is any other person in cab is not an asset but a liability, the distraction and feeling that ohh don't worry the other person would see it if I were to look elsewhere .
Better have more crew bases and relieve crew than two people in cab.

There is no pay differential, Engineer and Second Engineer positions pay the same.
The logic of closing the so-called "mini" crew bases escapes me; they were created, in theory, to streamline and economize the operation. OMA - CHI will require nine spots, the same number needed for single Engineer LNK - OTM and OTM - CHI operation. In fact, due to manpower shortages, the service has been covered with eight men as LNK is often (as it is currently) down to just three.
Likewise, SLC - GJT requires the same number of men as SLC - HER and HER - GJT did and, in fact, created Held Away pay in GJT that did not previously exist; apparently that decision was at least partially based on the inability of the SLC Road Foreman to effectively manage the GJT men "from a distance".

DutchRailnut wrote: After 17 years in cab by myself (not long distance) My feeling is any other person in cab is not an asset but a liability, the distraction and feeling that ohh don't worry the other person would see it if I were to look elsewhere .
Better have more crew bases and relieve crew than two people in cab.

If we asked 50 managers and consultants, what do you figure they would say??

Who cares about managers and consultants? They say whatever someone wants to hear, imo.

Interesting thread. VIA has two engineers up front for its long distance trains (as does Amtrak it seems), but one will throw the switches and sort of act like the conductor. In exchange, there is no official "conductor" rather their are just onboard service staff - for sleepers, coach, diner etc. Problems? Their is a "Chief of onboard services" to handle issues. The onboard staff stays onboard throughout the journey, except for the Canadian - where the entire crew is switched out. So I would assume VIA gets some cost savings with this arrangement of onboard service crew (no assistant conductor, no hotel expenses for conductors etc.). Again, I think this model ONLY works for long distance trains.

Moreover, one attendant can handle up to three sleepers, although typically they handle just two. Amtrak has one attendant per sleeper. Granted VIA's heritage cars have less capacity per car, but when you throw two or three together under one attendant, it outweighs Amtrak's capacity. There's a monitor inside the "50 year old Heritage cars" that tells them if there's a passenger calling in what car.