Is Independent Cement Alco RS3 #5 LVRR 219??

I found some pages that have some Birmingham Southern info:

http://www.hosam.com/alco/rs.html
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_RS2.HTML
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_RS3.HTML

Combined, they say:

Alco RS2 BIRMINGHAM SOUTHERN 150 Phase 1 - 77431 - 11/49
Alco RS2 BIRMINGHAM SOUTHERN 151 Phase 1 - 78251 - 9/50

Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 151 Phase 1a
Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 152 Phase 1b - 79096 - 10/51

I dont know if #151 being listed twice, as both a RS2 and a RS3 is a mistake or not..

unfortunately, *none* of that information is a slam-dunk for Cement #5.
Still no phase III RS3's on the list for BS.
the quest continues!

(I have thoroughly searched the internet looking for any kind of BS roster, there seems to be none on-line.)

Scot

Scot, looking at a photo on Fallen flags, and comparing the rear of the 251 with the known 219 rear pilot shot, I see several variations, between the two. The MU cable connection is on opposite sides, on both locos. The handrail configurations are also different, with pieces being present, that are not shown on the 251, with no signs of them being removed. Holes in the breastplate don't correspond between the pics, and it is unlikely someone would weld holes shut, and relocate them into another area. The firemans side radiator shutters are also different, although this is more easily changed, although it's unclear in the pics if it was modified, or replaced...
Another few items, I see now. The poling pockets on the LV unit are almost flush, with the catwalk on the loco, along the top side. The 251 has the pockets about 4" below the location of the Valley unit. These are cast into the frame, and not moveable. The roof vent on the 251 isn't on the 219, although it could be added. The firemans side windows have wind deflectors on the 219, but they are absent, along with the welded on mounting hardware, which would have remained, on the 251, even if the deflectors were removed. The 219 has a single track awning, over the windows, the 251 has dual track awnings. The 219 has end platform crossover stanchions the same height as the end railings. The 251 has elevated crossover stanchions, and they are single piece, Alco factory units, not cut and welded, nor bolt-ons. It's possible to alter all of these (except the poling pockets) but it's a lot of effort, for such trivial items, to relocate, remove or replace them.
Those distinct stripes, and Cornell red paint don't appear to bleed through anywhere, in the 251 pics, with so much peeling paint present, you would believe you would see at least a peek. My personal 219 pics are side views only, without any pilot details to see. This would be sweet if it was the 219, but I'm not seeing it, myself.......

* note: the CR RS-3 (ex-EL) was renumbered, in the photo shown, it's dated early 77, before the RS-3m project was underway, and the rebuild would have occured. Renumbering of units occured for some units, within days of become ConRail.
* note: the easiest way to identify a RS-2 from a RS-3, at any distance, is the location of the fuel tank, and filler. RS-2's have the fuel tank under the cab, with the filler mounted into the sidewall, of the cab, under both windows. The RS-3 has the fuel tank sandwiched between the main reservoirs, with the fuel fillers being located approx., halfway between the first and second stanchions, ahead of the cab on either side. Notice all the fuel spilled on the sides of those RS-2' cabs, in pictures from that era..........

thanks GA!
well ok then..I suppose that clinches it!
im bummed LV 219 wasnt discovered..she shall remain "disposition unknown"
it was a long-shot from the start, but it was an interesting possibility.

Now we still need to track down the heritage of this unit!
The Birmingham Southern theory isnt holding much water at this point either..we need some pics of the BS units..

thanks!
Scot

ok..yet more info on the Birmingham Southern RS2/RS3 roster:


Alco RS2 Birmingham Southern 150 Phase 1 - 77431 - 11/49

Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 151 Phase 1a
Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 152 Phase 1b - 79096 - 10/51
Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 153
Alco RS3 Birmingham Southern 154

That leaves Birmingham Southern RS3 #151 as the most likely contender for Independent Cement #5.
Someone out in internet land has BS 151 listed as a Phase 1a RS3, not a phase III..(and Cement #5 is a Phase III)
but with all the conflicting info about the BS roster, I wouldnt be surprised if the "Phase 1a" info for BS 151 is incorrect.

Scot

Pretty common knowledge that LV went bargain-basement shopping for better power just after the June 27th 1970 bankruptcy.

They swapped 3 or 4 RS2's to Penn Central for RS3's that PC was trading in which were in better shape, resulting in the 211 hammerhead unit which was originally built as a Pennsy passenger protect unit with dynamic brakes (I think for use on their Buffalo line out of Williamsport, so the story goes, memory is fuzzy). RS3 210 replaced RS2 210 and was the former PRR 8461, for example. I'd have to get out my X2200S issues for the exact number of swaps and pedigree for each one.

The Tennesee Central was taken over and divided up among Illinois Central, and I think the Lousiville & Nashville and Southern in the mid-1960s (certainly their FA's went to L&N and part of the line went to CSX). IC got the RS3 and didn't really want it - I don't think they bought any new Alco's except for a few C636's. It was sold to Precision National who resold it to the LV in late 1971. Precision was fairly well involved with IC and their GP8/GP10 rebuild program in the 1970s, to the point that their units had the same style lettering and the same paint scheme in different colors. Paducah of course would later repair/rebuild the 304 after the nose got torn off in a wreck.

There is a shot of two of the "replacement" units side by side at Coxton on P. 101 of Lehigh Valley In Color V1.


Not the first time LV bought bargain power, either, as it got two RS2s the C&O returned about 1950, and of course the ex-Monon C628's.

RS2 and RS3 units have a 244, the 251 was first used in the RS11 and RSD12. Someone probably mentioned that, but I didn't read the whole thread.

Winchester & Western had an RS11 numbered 251; LV had a C628 #628, and today's LA&L has a C420 #420, C424 #424, and C430 #430. One D&H C420 became 420 also, but I forget if it was an LV unit or an L&HR unit.

lvrr325 wrote: They swapped 3 or 4 RS2's to Penn Central for RS3's that PC was trading in which were in better shape, resulting in the 211 hammerhead unit which was originally built as a Pennsy passenger protect unit with dynamic brakes (I think for use on their Buffalo line out of Williamsport, so the story goes, memory is fuzzy). RS3 210 replaced RS2 210 and was the former PRR 8461, for example. I'd have to get out my X2200S issues for the exact number of swaps and pedigree for each one.

For some reason I never added that data to the LV survivors!
LV had a total of 13 RS2/RS3 units.
I have the info right here, and will add it to the LV survivors list soon:

210(1) RS2 - bought new by LV - sold 6/1970 to PC - to PC 5461(2)
210(2) RS3 - was PC 5461(1) - bought by LV 6/1970 - to LV 210(2)

211(1) RS2 - bought new by LV - sold 6/1970 to PC - to PC 5569(2)
211(2) RS3 - was PC 5569(1) - bought by LV 6/1970 - to LV 211(2)

212(1) RS2 - bought new by LV - sold 6/1970 to PC - to PC 5401(2)
212(2) RS3 - was PC 5401(1) - bought by LV 6/1970 - to LV 212(2)

213 RS2 - bought new by LV
214 RS2 - bought new by LV
215 RS3 - bought new by LV
216 RS3 - bought new by LV
217 RS2 - was C&O 5500 - bought by LV 10/1950
218 RS2 - was C&O 5501 - bought by LV 10/1950
219 RS3 - was built as Tennesee Central 251 - bought by LV 12/71 - 1/72


I will add the rest of the info to the LV survivors page (such as Conrail numbers and dispositions.)

Scot

Appreciate the info, it’s good to know.