Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

  by west point
MACTRAXX wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:22 pm This time I noticed something that I overlooked in previous instances that this problem arose is that RR.Net
will log you out involuntarily - if that happens you DO lose any work that you have in progress...
TIME OUT for right now...MACTRAXX

Finally an answer as to why I could not keep logged in. Thanks for not notifying us RR net.
Allan wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:30 am None of the IRT cars thru the R36 were delivered with air-conditioning with the exception 10 R17 cars 6800-6809 (built in 1955) were delivered with experimental A/C. The A/C units failed and those cars were retrofitted with the standard axiflow fans.

For years it was assumed it could not be done.

Between 1975 and 1982 all cars in the R26, R28, R29, R33 (see note) and R36 were retrofitted with A/C. Since all cars in these orders were 'married pairs" it was accomplished by putting the air compressors under on of the cars in the pair thus serving both cars. Note - the R33S cars were not retrofitted since they were single cars (to serve as the 11th car on the World's Fair/Flushing line service) and it required 2 cars to support A/C.

When the R62 and R62A cars were delivered (between 1984 thru 1987) had the technology advanced enough (for the TA) where A/C units were compact enough to fit in the roof of each car (2 per car).

My reference source (I can't remember everything) is "Evolution of New York City Subways" by Gene Sansone.
Allan - I was in the process yesterday of typing out a reply about the NYC Subway cars mentioned in your
post - and after doing some side research ending up losing my reply post altogether as I noted yesterday...

1-I remember that the IRT cars that had air-conditioning units added in their ceilings had an interior spotting
feature which were thick standee poles inside the car to help support the weight of the air unit above...
There was an MTA publication that explained the IRT AC retrofit program and the specific design used...

2-I remember the mention that the R33S cars on the #7 Flushing Line not being air conditioned were once
removed from service during the Summer season...With slightly less ridership trains lengths were reduced
from 11 to 10 cars - with the two major Metrocard incentives of Free Transfers in 1997 and then Unlimited
Rides in 1998 Summer ridership increased enough that 11 car #7 trains were necessary year round...

3-Hard to believe that the R62 cars have now become the oldest cars in IRT service remembering them
when they were new as you do...The NYC Subway IRT car fleet being all stainless steel has to be good
for maintenance purposes as compared to painted steel car bodies...

4-Gene Sansone's book is a VERY good reference for those interested in NYC Subway cars...MACTRAXX
  by ExCon90
The things you find out -- I remember those thicker poles at the time and wondered what the reason was; now I know.
Allan wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:54 pm
AllenPHazen wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 7:59 pm Remark-- the article says the oldest cars in revenue service date to the 1980s. So (i) NYCTA seems to be working with a 35-40 year expected life span for its cars and (ii) (personal) NO car I rode when I last lived in New York City is still in service: hard to believe!
Welcome to Railroad.net and the NYCT, MTA Subway, PATH and SIRT forum (it is rare anyone recently joining gets welcomed so I took the opportunity to do so).

You are correct in the 35-40 year service life in general. Although the R32/32A cars built in 1964-65 were actually in service longer having been officially retired in January 2022 (that makes nearly 56 years in service for some of those cars). The R46 cars are now the oldest active cars in service (entering service between 1975-1978 making it nearly 50 years of service (and getting them ready to be retired and replaced by R179 and R211A cars - which is currently happening). The R62/62A cars are next going into service in 1984-85 and slated for replacement by the R262 cars around 2030.
Allan (answering APH's observation post):
I was also trying to reply on the subject of the R32/32A "Brightliner" cars built by the Budd Company in 1964-65.
Back in the late 1980s these cars were extensively overhauled and rebuilt with new and reconditioned parts by
removing just about everything down to the stainless steel car body shells and for all intents and purposes the
R32 cars were renewed for a fraction of the cost of new Subway cars...NYC Transit certainly got their money's
worth out of the R32 fleet with about 30 years of added service...What would bother me is that the mention of
the R32 car fleet's original age should have included information about this very successful rebuild program...
- What I am uncertain of was the R32 rebuild program done in-house by NYCT or an outside contractor?

The 745 car R46 fleet built by Pullman-Standard had its own problems remembering the defective Rockwell
International trucks but would turn out to be a car fleet with its own significant longevity...I remember that
there were changes made to the R46 fleet such as re-numbering and removing the blue lower side stripe...
- Were the R46 cars overhauled or rebuilt at some point during the 1990s as I seem to recall?
- Do you have any general idea about how many R46 cars may have been retired at this point?

I was trying to research information about the R32 and R46 cars when I ran into my problem trying to save
the post that I was trying to submit - I figured that you would know about these two car fleets and with the
assistance of Gene Sansone's book be able to clarify when and where these cars were rebuilt...MACTRAXX
  by Allan
You are right I should have mentioned the overhaul of the R32s (which contributed to their longevity).

From Gene's book:

The General Overhaul (GOH) of the R32s were done by two companies:

Buffalo Transit Sysytem (General Electric (1988) 10 cars - 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, and 3934-7

Morrison-Knudson (1988-90) 584 cars - 3350-3593, 3596-3879,3882-3891, 3894-3933, and 3938-3949

As you mentioned the R46s were rebuilt in a GOH (by Morrison-Knudson) during 1990-1991. They were originally numbered 500-1278 but were renumbered 5482-6207 (except car numbers 6202-6205 which I believe were in use by other cars).

At this point I do not believe any of the R46s have been officially retired, While I could not cite exact numbers (I can only go by what I have seen) there are at least 4 10 car sets (2x5) of R179s on the A and a similar number of 8 car sets (2x4) on the C. From what I have seen there are 5 10 car sets (2x5) of R211As in active service on the A with the 10 car (2x5) R211T in service on the C. The rest of the service fleet for A and C are the R46s.

The R211A are (in the order I saw them in consists on the A):
4065-4069, 4064-4060
4074-4070, 4119-4115 *
4100-4104, 4120-4124 *
4105-4109, 4099-4095 *
4135-4139, 4130-4134
*I don't know why the 2nd set isn't sequential to the first set. Possibly some issues that occurred during testing.

The R211T (based on the problems they identified maybe we should call this the "Model T") cars 4045-4049, 4044-4040

I am sure there are other R211s on the property in various stages of testing.

Based on past history of car replacement the NYCTA usually keeps older cars around for a while in
reserve until they are totally satisfied with the replacement equipment.
That is why the R32s were around longer because there were just too many issues with the R179s.
Also, the N, Q and W are almost all R46s (with a few R68s/68As in there as well) so they can always use spare equipment.