Hybrid Locomotives

I like the article in this month's TRAINS Magazine about hybrid locomotives. Of course, in a sense diesels have always been hybrid hydrocarbon-fueled / electric-driven. However, this one is very clever. It's driven by two separate truck engines and a battery pack. For short moves, they don't even fire up the engines; just run it on batteries. If they need more/longer power, they fire up one of the engines. If they need more, they fire up more. The engine / generator (aka genset) is mounted on a pallet, so if it needs repair, it can be pulled and replaced with a forklift. If one fails, the other one can be used to bring the engine in for repair. They're standard truck engines, so they use standard truck parts, so they don't need specialized knowledge to repair. They run at higher speeds and generate less pollution.

This seems like SUCH a wonderful improvement.

I haven't yet seen the issue of Trains yet (here in Australia they hit the stands a month or two after the cover date, whereas in the USA a month before!) so I'm not sure of what the new engine refers to, but this is not a new idea. Many mons ago, the New York Central has a DES3 loco with triple power, for the Manhattan West Side line which ran the gamut of tunnels, decking over parkland, out in the open, on viaducts, even through within buildings, yards, sidings, you name it. Wityh such variety of environments for emissions and not, with 3rd rail electrification as part of the Hudson Division suburban territory requiring crews to not get "zapped", this loco used electrified power for 3rd rail, battery power, and diesel power depending on where it was and what it was doing there.

Vytautas B. Radzivanas
Perth, Western Australia

Diesels are not hybrid, unless a storage device is used, either flywheel or battery.
just because it has electric propulsion does not make it hybrid.

DutchRailnut wrote:Diesels are not hybrid, unless a storage device is used, either flywheel or battery. just because it has electric propulsion does not make it hybrid.

Interestingly, you can pull out the batteries on this loco, and replace it with a third genset if you need the extra power. I guess in your book that would make it not be hybrid anymore.

Probably the best known diesel electric hybrid is the Green Goat which fits your description well. http://www.railpower.com/

Back in the early twentieth century, there were a number of Alco/GE/Ingersoll-Rand dual-power (diesel/battery) and triple-power (diesel/battery/pantograph) boxcab locomotives built for switching applications. It's kind of ironic to see this type of setup make a comeback!

spRocket wrote:Back in the early twentieth century, there were a number of Alco/GE/Ingersoll-Rand dual-power (diesel/battery) and triple-power (diesel/battery/pantograph) boxcab locomotives built for switching applications. It's kind of ironic to see this type of setup make a comeback!

When it comes to technology, what isn't feasible today will certainly be tomorrow...

It would seem modern Diesels would lend themselves to hybrid conversion by pairing them with battery-pack slugs. Dynamic-braking generated power could charge the batteries rather than being blown off as waste heat, and the extra power from the batteries would be useful for starting and max load applications.

Of course, a long uphill drag would drain the batteries and leave the train dependent on the power of its prime movers alone. Also, I can't imagine how cost effective/durable the batteries and other technology might be.

The biggest advantage to automotive hybrids is in stop/go traffic; they really don't outperform conventional cars of equivalent output on the highway due to the constant demand for power. The same thing may well be true of locomotives, with yard service the best application.

Malley

Malley wrote:The biggest advantage to automotive hybrids is in stop/go traffic; they really don't outperform conventional cars of equivalent output on the highway due to the constant demand for power.

That's true, however, would you really want to have to accellerate up to highway speeds with a 1 liter engine?? The real peak load for an auto is accellerating and passing, not cruising. I think that the similar limit for a train is: how much power do you need to get up the hills? If you can charge batteries while dynamically braking downhill, and then use that power to help get back up the hill, that *might* make batteries worthwhile.

On the other hand, it may be better to have the loco built up from standard gensets, so that yard locos use one standard genset and one battery genset, while road locos use three standard gensets, and only run all three when pulling up a hill.

This is, to my mind, THE most exciting technology to hit railroads in the past fifty years.

That's true, however, would you really want to have to accellerate up to highway speeds with a 1 liter engine?? The real peak load for an auto is accellerating and passing, not cruising. I think that the similar limit for a train is: how much power do you need to get up the hills? If you can charge batteries while dynamically braking downhill, and then use that power to help get back up the hill, that *might* make batteries worthwhile.[/quote]

That 'might' is indeed the question. In automotive usage, the battery backup gives a needed boost to the relatively small internal combustion engine. The battery will be drawn down, but for short bursts it won't be an issue. A long uphill that requires battery assist will eventually drain the battery. The same might well be the case for locomotives.
In roller coaster country, the batteries might have a chance to catch up on downhills; I'm not so sure on 17 Mile Grade.
Malley

I saw on General Electric's website, www.ge.ecomagination.com, that they are currently researching whether or not a diesel hybrid would be feasible. This hybrid they are looking into is a diesel/batery powered hybrid. This means that if the unit is out of fuel, the batteries will run the train. Plus, these batteries are lead fre and rechargable. The locomotives scheduled to be publicly released sometime in 2007.

RussNelson wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:Diesels are not hybrid, unless a storage device is used, either flywheel or battery. just because it has electric propulsion does not make it hybrid.

Interestingly, you can pull out the batteries on this loco, and replace it with a third genset if you need the extra power. I guess in your book that would make it not be hybrid anymore.

The RailPower switcher is different because it shuts down two of the three diesel prime movers on its road switcher when there is no need for power. That would qualify as a hybrid in my opinion. There would probably be a greater demand for the Green Goats if there wasn't a big concern over the 30 ton lead acid battery.

What wonderful technology! Maybe someday somebody will find a way to adapt it for use in submarines! Then they could be powered by diesel generator sets, batteries, and electric motors rather than nuclear reactors and steam turbines!

Oops! They already did that a long time ago.....

mxdata wrote:What wonderful technology!

Well, yes, but submariines HAD to use batteries to run beneath the surface without a snorkel. What's different now for batteries to be cost-effective? High cost of fuel? New power electronics? Or maybe they've been cost-effective for the past fifty years but it wasn't until the Staggers act and the resurgance of railroads AND the railroads needing more engines making new R&D worthwhile?

I'm sure that for a while, EMD was just building the same old designs because they couldn't justify spending the millions to create new ones.

While not strictly on the topic of "hybrids", since the discussion has also developed to include the ability of diesel and/oe electric locomotives to boost temporary power requirements for certain situations, it is of interest to mention that several steam locomotives on some lines (eg: Lehigh and New England) had "Bethlehem Auxilliary boosters" to get additional starting power until the locomotives proper could be solely engaged once over a threshold speed. There were actually rodded-driven rear tender trucks. Steam locomotives generally had to struggle to get started, but once they were going they could pull the trainloads. From what I understand, not being in the mechanical field, it's the other way around with diesels, and the boost is needed to run for faster cruising?

Sincerely,

Vytautas B. Radzivanas
Perth, Western Australia