How much are Class I and II railroads paid by Amtrak?

Could granting access to Amtrak financially support you enough to build new tracks somewhere, or is it an unbelievably small number? I know there are also small on-time bonuses to bribe railroads into giving them preference.

Also, I'm pretty sure I understand this but maybe I don't: Freight railroads are not forced to let Amtrak run on their tracks, per se, but the law requires them to give Amtrak preference in dispatching if the railroad decides to accept the money and grant Amtrak access. Am I correct, or are the railroads forced to give Amtrak access anyway?

Railroads who joined Amtrak are obligated, including their corporate successors.

The rates they pay are not made public, but are suspected to be well below market rate based on Amtrak's financial reports for fees paid to other railroads divided by the track miles used.

That offers little to no actual compensation let alone profit for the freight railroads.

Railroads who didn't join can negotiate higher rates, but they'd never come close to covering the cost of new construction.

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Having been in the industry and further having examined documents regarding Amtrak payments to both mine and other roads as well, Amtrak gets bargain basement rates, yet they insist and threaten roads with legal action to be treated in the same manner as Uncle Warren treats his trucker friend JB Hunt, i.e. lay down the road for Amtrak's benefit.

This is why I am of record around here with my opposition to continuation, let alone the expansion, of Amtrak's so-called National Network (LD's). The advocates here are quick to point out that "they really don't lose all that much money" and considering how the Federal Government throws that stuff around (Hey, we can always print more), that is likely correct. But what the advocacy community seems to overlook is the indirect subsidy that the Class I's are providing with this bargain basement access and expecting "Z Train" (think that's BNSF designation for JBH's and other's traffic) performance with their "see you in court" threats.

Admin note

Topic moved to Amtrak

GBN has the right of it. The next renewal of the act should include a reimbursement rate to the Class I and II lines equal to the average of moving the most time sensitive freight shipment along the route. Further, Amtrak should pay double the rate for any of its trains blocking a route.

It’s been 52 years. It’s past time for Amtrak to pay the railroads the real worth of time on the line.

I recall reading an article where the late Jim McClellan was quoted that NS makes more money hauling a single piggyback trailer from Philadelphia to Chicago than what Amtrak pays for NS to host all of their passenger trains.

Amtrak's cost to operate over the freight railroads was $142 million in 2017 as noted on this link,
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/upl ... etails.pdf

If you divide $142 million by 28 million train miles (LD + state routes only in 2023) you get a rough cost of about $5 per train mile.

Adjusted for inflation the cost probably works out to something like $6-$8/train mile today.

Could Amtrak and a successor freight make an agreement bargaining away that right? For instance, could Amtrak say "we'll give up our right to access your Chicago south side main, in return for a payment of $x,xxx,xxx," which might be used to help pay for improvements needed to move to the CN lakeshore routing?

I have no idea whether such an agreement would make sense for NS. But if Amtrak really creates difficulty for freights, then it must be worth something to eliminate it. I wonder what it would be worth.

And I wonder whether Amtrak has the right to abrogate the track access it was granted by the inaugural legislation.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:34 pm GBN has the right of it. The next renewal of the act should include a reimbursement rate to the Class I and II lines equal to the average of moving the most time sensitive freight shipment along the route. Further, Amtrak should pay double the rate for any of its trains blocking a route.

It’s been 52 years. It’s past time for Amtrak to pay the railroads the real worth of time on the line.

I'm all for that, if you eliminate the 2.5 billion dollar bribe AMTRAK, (me, the taxpayer) has to give massive money makers like NS every time they want to add one more frequency, supposedly due to massive improvements they need to make to accommodate this. I'm guessing UPS and Tropicana aren't paying billions up front to Class I and II lines before they're allowed to have a time sensitive train on their route.

You can be certain that Uncle Warren and JBH have a performance clause within their rate and remuneration agreement. You can be sure that if JBH sees one of "his" trains poking along, Warren will hear about it, with the "excrement" trickling on down to some newly hired fresh out of BNSF's Management Training Program Assistant Trainmaster working "third trick".

Any Amtrak agreement with most of the remuneration beyond, say, that $9 a train mile noted earlier by Mr. PRR Pittsburgher or Amtrak.Montrealer (#60) wrapped up in performance payments is fine by me.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:15 am Having been in the industry and further having examined documents regarding Amtrak payments to both mine and other roads as well, Amtrak gets bargain basement rates, yet they insist and threaten roads with legal action to be treated in the same manner as Uncle Warren treats his trucker friend JB Hunt, i.e. lay down the road for Amtrak's benefit.

Perhaps I am remembering this wrong, but I think I once read that JB Hunt pays the western carriers something like $50k+ per train to do the 48 hour run from LA to Chicago. That's like $28/train mile. Heck, Amtrak charges $4 per private car mile, $3 for each extra, until you need third motor which is another $6/mile. You get a bill of something like $3000-5000/day for one private car day, according to AAPRCO.

If, according to the above post, Amtrak pays the Freighs $5/mile, it's no wonder the Freights just don't care. Yeah, I know, "it's illegal to prioritize freight". Here's a few other things it is illegal to do: speed, spit in public, mispronounce "arkansas", copulate with your socks on (in virginia), throw snowballs (in kansas)...

The same legislature that writes the law, writes the punishment. You get a $10 fine for parking tickets, but you get a $250 fine and five points for speeding in a work zone. Currently the Amtrak legislation gives little enforcement or fines, certainly not enough to make the Freights really care.

Fix the trackage rates and you go a long way to fixing Amtrak.

The other big flaw is the failure rate on the motors - they do not get adequate maintenance. I've long advocated that anything under 80mph operation should have leased freight motors and HPU/baggage vans. If Union Pacific were on the hook for forty SD70MAC's to run the Zephyr, Starlight, Sunset, and Eagle, you can bet they would rarely die. The guy in Little Rock or Cheyenne that sent that motor out in less than top shape would certainly hear about it from the boys that had priority trains stopped behind it.

So if it costs $1Mil per mile and Amtrak pays $5 becomes a pittance. Even for a short line operator may like to have Amtrak but can't afford to keep it.

Probably not many short lines or a RJ Corman in the Amtrak network.'

Could be good comparison for what Metra & the commuter lines pay the freights to operate trains in their district. UP & BNSF may like the arrangement?

WashingtonPark wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 1:45 pm I'm guessing UPS and Tropicana aren't paying billions up front to Class I and II lines before they're allowed to have a time sensitive train on their route.

UPS and Tropicana buy entire trains from NS, CSX, UP, and BNSF. They get charged from the moment the road units hook up to the train in the UPS build tracks, and the EOT gets hung. The meter runs to the download yard. Then UPS in particular gets charged for a loaded train back to the point of origin. That happens multiple times a day.

Amtrak, otoh, is a vitamin, 1 a day. Some of these routes haven’t seen passenger service in years. Want PC quality passenger rides? You’d get them without rebuild. When was the last time the Sunset ran to Florida? What about the Texas Chief from Oklahoma City to Newton or Emporia? What about a UP run from Ogden to Barstow? These track aren’t suited for 80-90MPH anymore.

GWoodle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:06 pm So if it costs $1Mil per mile and Amtrak pays $5 becomes a pittance. Even for a short line operator may like to have Amtrak but can't afford to keep it.

There area few shortlines in the system like Buckingham Branch. The former Sunset east is now a shortline east of Pensacola, but it's also a very empty area and wouldn't make much sense for a regional. Most passengers are snowbirds going to 30a from the midwest and east coast.

GWoodle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:06 pmCould be good comparison for what Metra & the commuter lines pay the freights to operate trains in their district. UP & BNSF may like the arrangement?

I'm not sure what Metra pays BNSF or UP but many major commuter operators bought a large portion of their trackage from bankrupt estates that no longer needed to run freights all the way downtown, so there isn't a lot of evidence to study. Of the five major commuter cities in the US (Boston, NY, Philly, Chicago, and LA) probably half or more are now operator-owned.

I haven't seen any comments about the disparity in speeds between passenger and freight trains. You can easily insert another intermodal train amongst others running at the same speeds; a passenger train traveling maybe 20 mph faster and needing to overtake every intermodal or carload-freight train it catches up with disrupts what would otherwise be a uniform operating pattern. I'm not sure how you put a price on that, but it's a factor.