How long do locomotives run before being turned off?

railfan365 wrote:Why are large diesels set to drop their collant? If that feature was designed in in regard to engines that do not have anti-freeze, perhaps that valve could be removed or by-passed. It seems wasteful to have ongoing fuel consumption, whether the engine's work is useful or not.

They dump the water because if it's left to freeze, water expands, and destroys engines. The BCOL 3911 suffered that fate when the auto drain valve failed and it was left dead by a crew somewhere... not a pretty sight when the block is split open.

CN Sparky wrote:

railfan365 wrote:Why are large diesels set to drop their collant? If that feature was designed in in regard to engines that do not have anti-freeze, perhaps that valve could be removed or by-passed. It seems wasteful to have ongoing fuel consumption, whether the engine's work is useful or not.

They dump the water because if it's left to freeze, water expands, and destroys engines. The BCOL 3911 suffered that fate when the auto drain valve failed and it was left dead by a crew somewhere... not a pretty sight when the block is split open.

I think that you overlookedthat my quoted post is in reference to having anti-freeze in.

I'm wondering why the very large diesels can't handle glycol.

railfan365 wrote:
I'm wondering why the very large diesels can't handle glycol.

read first page again and wonder no more

DutchRailnut wrote:

railfan365 wrote:
I'm wondering why the very large diesels can't handle glycol.

read first page again and wonder no more

To be more specific, while I read the earlier post about very large diesels burning anti-freeze, and the seals not taking it well - what I'm wondering is: Why can't the very large engines handle anti-freeze while the smaller engines in cars, trucks, and gensets can take it? After all, there is a large degree of having the same design, just a different size.

a tolerance on a small engine can not be maintained on large engines.
also large engines are differently constructed than small engines.
Small engines have a cast engine block, large engines are largely manufactured with all plumbing and power handeling equipment fit in as seperate equipment.

Glycol reduces the heat transfer capability of the cooling system, a consideration for hotter climates, steep grades and tunnels.

It's been my understanding that it is also corrosive and considering the size and value of your average diesel locomotive engine and how long they are generally expected to last. Why, reduce an engine's life span when current proceedures work well. The coollant in most locomotives is regular water with an anti-algea additive which causes the pink or green colorization. All is environmentally friendly so if a spill does happen it is non-toxic and a non-issue, and a damn site cheaper than anit-freeze..

not a anti-algea but a corrosive inhibitor.

Environmentally friendly? Can someone please back up that claim?

If borate nitrate is environmentally friendly, it's the first time I've heard of it.

RickRackstop wrote: The habit of leaving engines idling for long periods of time is so that they stay warm and ready for instant use. With modern sensors they can cycle them on and off and still maintain enough warmth in the engine. Kim Hotstart is one of the companies that design and build stay warm systems for diesel engines and the basic unit that requires it to be plugged into a shore power system costs about $3000 I think. All diesels used for emergency operations have heating systems designed or at least approved by the manufacturer.

Starting an engine periodically just to keep it warm enough to rapidly pick up load without undue wear or damage is insane. It burns expensive fuel oil and results in unnecessary internal wear. Stationary applications, requiring large sources of emergency electrical power literally within seconds, use relatively small electrical immersion heaters in the oil coolers. A small pump, usually called a "soak back" pump, continuously circulates the oil throughout the engine and especially the turbocharger. Nuclear power plants, as an example, use this technique. The 3,000 to 4,000 HP emergency diesel generators in these applications are able to start, come up to speed, and start picking up significant load in less than 10 seconds. It seems strange locomotive engines would use such a fuel and ultimately maintenance intensive method of accomplishing something similar.

your right, and all those railroaders are wrong !!

DutchRailnut wrote:your right, and all those railroaders are wrong !!

I am not suggesting they are wrong. I am just curious why they do it differently than other industries.

Name one industry which would be comparable to railroad industry
Martime, not even close
Construction not even close to engine size,same with trucking industries.
in other industries, oportunity exist to preheat engines and keep shut down engines warm by using waste heat from other running engines.
In railroading that oportunity does not exist

For your information, the housed generator sets EMD (model MP36) manufactured in the early 60's using the 567D4 engine uses ethylene glycol anti freeze along with a thermostatic valve and the radiator does not drain back to the expansion tank on shutdown. The only one that I know of that leaked was a LILCO unit and that was a leak in the lube oil cooler. Yes there was a big mess in the oil pan that had to be cleaned out. I think there is an MI on the subject. As peaking generators this type of unit only runs about 300 hours per year the rest is on standby with the 25KW immersion heater keeping it warm.The MP36 was supplanted by the MP45 in 1966 with the introduction of the 20-645-E4 engine and it do not use anti freeze, being more like locomotives.

Locomotives are supposed to be pulling trains most of the time and marine units average about 6000 hrs a year so they don't get much of a chance to cool off in between assignments. The real offenders are switching locomotives that idle about 60% of the time and some of them are getting the automatic shut down systems or the stay-warm systems to reduce idling.