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  • How did the NYS&W enter Pennsylvania from New Jersey?

  • Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.
Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.

Moderators: GOLDEN-ARM, NJ Vike

 #984819  by cjvrr
 
Walter,

Look at the following link for a postcard photo of the bridge;

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/n ... ware-river

The right of way was obliterated when Route 80 was constructed in the Gap. However where Route 80 actually crosses the river, the NYS&W railroad turned north up the vally a little bit and then crossed the river. If you look at aerial photos of the Route 80 bridge, you should be able to go north from that point and see one or more of the NYS&W bridge piers or abutments in the river. Some have toppled due to floods, but some remain.

The bridge itself looked to be very lightweight contruction (as with most of the bridges on that part of the line and the WB&E). One of the "NYS&W in Color" books has a much better color photo of the bridge.
 #984887  by cjvrr
 
walterconklin wrote:Thank you for the historical information.

I also found some images of the Susquehanna RR bridge at the following link: http://www.nps.gov/dewa/historyculture/ ... eID=190591.

After the Susquehanna RR abandoned the line in 1940, did the railroad have another way to enter PA?

Sincerely,
Walter
Not from 1940 until the early 1980s there was no direct connection by the NYS&W to PA. Once they abandoned the line thru the Gap the only reason NYS&W went west of Sparta Junction was to interchange with the Lehigh & New England in Hainesburg. When the L&NE was abandoned the NYS&W pulled back to Sparta Junction soon thereafter.

However there were some coal mine branches up in the Wyoming Valley that the NYS&W owned but I believe they were operated by different railroads. But they probably divested those lines as the coal industry collapsed. I don't think they were connected to the Wilkes Barre and Eastern either and they had to use the other railroads in that valley to connect to them. Remember when the Erie took over the NYS&W they diverted all NYS&W coal to Erie lines.

The NYS&W did operate the Stourbridge Railroad for a while from the early 1980s to the late 1980s. That line is wholly within PA.

Even now the NYS&W enters PA while travelling up the Delaware River between Port Jervis and Binghamton.
 #984910  by Roadgeek Adam
 
cjvrr wrote:Walter,

Look at the following link for a postcard photo of the bridge;

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/n ... ware-river

The right of way was obliterated when Route 80 was constructed in the Gap. However where Route 80 actually crosses the river, the NYS&W railroad turned north up the vally a little bit and then crossed the river. If you look at aerial photos of the Route 80 bridge, you should be able to go north from that point and see one or more of the NYS&W bridge piers or abutments in the river. Some have toppled due to floods, but some remain.

The bridge itself looked to be very lightweight contruction (as with most of the bridges on that part of the line and the WB&E). One of the "NYS&W in Color" books has a much better color photo of the bridge.
It was built so lightly that trains had only a 10 mph speed limit on it.

The right-of-way north of Interstate 80 is part of the Karamac Trail in Worthington State Park. The trail ends right at the bridge abutments. (You will pass the Dunnfield station site on that way.)

Basically, yes the alignment through the gap that Interstate 80 follows was a dirt road and railroad tracks (literally side by side). The bridge survived a couple years of abandonment in 1940 (some photos from '42 exist with no tracks on it). (the Wilkes Barre & Eastern was canned in 1939, Lehigh & New England left Hainesburg in 1962.)

I never got the theory that NYS&W really liked using the Wilkes Barre and Eastern, but that's why besides Stroudsburg & Kingston, nothing was really that impressive.
 #985048  by njmidland
 
The NYS&W still owned the Susquehanna Connecting RR and some disconnected branches in the Lackawanna Valley and Wyoming Valley. The NYS&W did get trackage rights to reach the area over the NYO&W but never used them. Instead these lines were operated by the Erie then EL and then Conrail. In the end only some of the trackage around Suscon remained and was finally sold off in the mid-1980s after Delaware Otsego had purchased the NYS&W. In fact a few parcels of land were still in DO/NYS&W ownership well into the 1990s in the area. There might still be some land owned by them today.
 #985055  by njmidland
 
Roadgeek Adam wrote:I never got the theory that NYS&W really liked using the Wilkes Barre and Eastern, but that's why besides Stroudsburg & Kingston, nothing was really that impressive.
If you can find Volume 1, number 1 and 2 of the NJ Midland RHS' Midlander publication the article by Jim Guthrie on the WB&E really lays it out. Bob Mohowski's book on the NYS&W covers some of this as well. Here is a real quick overview:

When the NYS&W opened the WB&E, Susquehanna Connecting and the various branches they were really the last railroad to reach the region. They attracted the business of a lot of the independent coal operators with lower rates. They could offer those lower rates because the NYS&W was a compact operation. Other than the Hanford Branch the line was pretty much an efficient conveyor belt running from the coal mines straight to the Hudson River and hundreds of thousands of customers right on the other shore. Sure the WB&E had some tough grades, but who cared since they were hauling empty hoppers uphill? There was also a pretty profitable ice business as well. J.P. Morgan in particular saw the NYS&W as a serious threat to the Erie ever being a profitable operation as he was counting on coal that was being diverted to the NYS&W. The NYS&W was even trying to take over the then independent Erie & Wyoming RR (later the Erie's Wyoming Division). Had that happened the Erie would only be able to reach the coal via the north via Carbondale.

Once the Erie (Morgan) gained control of the NYS&W the WB&E was downgrade to essentially a branch and the coal was routed onto the Erie such that a coal shipment from a point on the SC RR going to say Sparta, NJ would be routed over the Erie to Passaic Jct. and then back west!

What little people today know or think about the WB&E is from this later obscure branchline era. For a few brief years (1893-1898) it was a serious extremely profitable coal route.
 #985060  by Roadgeek Adam
 
njmidland wrote:
Roadgeek Adam wrote:I never got the theory that NYS&W really liked using the Wilkes Barre and Eastern, but that's why besides Stroudsburg & Kingston, nothing was really that impressive.
If you can find Volume 1, number 1 and 2 of the NJ Midland RHS' Midlander publication the article by Jim Guthrie on the WB&E really lays it out. Bob Mohowski's book on the NYS&W covers some of this as well. Here is a real quick overview:

When the NYS&W opened the WB&E, Susquehanna Connecting and the various branches they were really the last railroad to reach the region. They attracted the business of a lot of the independent coal operators with lower rates. They could offer those lower rates because the NYS&W was a compact operation. Other than the Hanford Branch the line was pretty much an efficient conveyor belt running from the coal mines straight to the Hudson River and hundreds of thousands of customers right on the other shore. Sure the WB&E had some tough grades, but who cared since they were hauling empty hoppers uphill? There was also a pretty profitable ice business as well. J.P. Morgan in particular saw the NYS&W as a serious threat to the Erie ever being a profitable operation as he was counting on coal that was being diverted to the NYS&W. The NYS&W was even trying to take over the then independent Erie & Wyoming RR (later the Erie's Wyoming Division). Had that happened the Erie would only be able to reach the coal via the north via Carbondale.

Once the Erie (Morgan) gained control of the NYS&W the WB&E was downgrade to essentially a branch and the coal was routed onto the Erie such that a coal shipment from a point on the SC RR going to say Sparta, NJ would be routed over the Erie to Passaic Jct. and then back west!

What little people today know or think about the WB&E is from this later obscure branchline era. For a few brief years (1893-1898) it was a serious extremely profitable coal route.
I just recently returned a copy of Mohowski's book to my college library after spending two weeks reading the hell out of it. However, the Wilkes Barre & Eastern really wasn't profitable for nothing more than freight, and considering first-class was gone by 1902, it's hard to say what could have happened. The Ice business around Tannersville I believe was really the only stronghold in that area, wasn't it? I mean the Erie had its own ice shipment from Erskine already, so what profit was there in using the one in Tannersville?
 #985140  by njmidland
 
The passenger service was always minor. They had 2 through Jersey City - Wilkes Barre trains but they were strictly utilitarian. The NYS&W didn't care if they made money - only that they didn't lose money, hence they were quickly gone. The NYS&W was all about the coal business and it was very profitable.

there is really no point in discussing what happened after 1898. The NYS&W/WB&E was built as a stand alone operation in 1893. The Erie (J.P. Morgan) bought it in 1898 essentially to put it out of business (as far as a competitive line). The Erie starved the NYS&W of capital money during the 40 years it owned it so we can only speculate what the NYS&W would have looked like during those years and if the NYS&W west of Hainesburg Jct. would have survived. I tend to think the Delaware River bridge might have been upgraded or replaced in the 1920s and perhaps the line would have survived to Stroudsburg. When the coal loading started to drop off I think the WB&E would still have been abandoned - perhaps it might have lingered a little longer but never long enough to see yellow and black B40s.
 #985386  by pumpers
 
Somewhere out there, there must be some old reports with how many tons of coal the WBE/NYSW hauled every year. It would be interesting to see the numbers - how high they were around 1895 and then how low they dropped. I have read that in the later years (1930's?), there was only one round trip per day on the WBE as the effect of the Erie and the beginning of the end of the anthracite era took their toll. JS
 #985387  by pumpers
 
njmidland wrote: The NYS&W was even trying to take over the then independent Erie & Wyoming RR (later the Erie's Wyoming Division). Had that happened the Erie would only be able to reach the coal via the north via Carbondale.
Was the NYSW tring to get hold of the Erie & Wyoming before they built the WBE as some way to get from the Scranton area to NJ (not sure what the plan would have been after Lackawaxen or Honesdale or wherever the northeast end of the Erie & Wyoming was - unless they wanted to build to connect with Hanford through Middletown..), and when they failed to get it they built the WBE, or was it once they built the WBE they wanted the Erie and Wyoming valley to connect to more mines in the Scranton area?
JS