How can Amtrak obtain more sleeping cars?

This is an outgrowth of "Should Amtrak re-form the Pullman Company."

Obviously, Amtrak can beg for money from Congress. We all know that.

Having said that, are there any realistic scenerios where a bit of private investment could be made to get Amtrak some more sleeper cars? The Superliners are badly in need of rehab. There aren't really enough Viewliners to go around. And, of course, any extra cash that's lying around is headed for the Acela brake problem.

IIRC, the railroads used to use equipment trusts to purchase equipment. If someone could post the "Reader's Digest condensed version" of plusses and minuses of this approach, I'd appreciate it.

What I would do is find the repository of blueprints of the Budd Company's passenger cars and start building them.

To Mr CNJ:

I believe that answer is: Contact Bombardier. I heard rumor they are now the holders of record of both Budd and P-S prints.

Who has ACF and SLCC blueprints? That's a different question altogether.


To Mr Damon:

Let's make this really simple: I own a business. My revenues do not cover my expenses. I'm lucky enough to have my Uncle cover the distance between the two. I'm not so lucky; my Uncle cuts that check once a year, and he's getting less willing to cover me.

How many bankers are interested in investing in that scenario?

IIRC Amtrak did a sell/leaseback on the fleet during the Warrington years.

In plain English: Unless Congress comes up with capital construction funds, the new passenger car well is dry. If I heard one of my banking center stocks was planning this kind of a move, I'd SELL at once.

John Perkowski

Equipment trusts are loans, so they have to be paid back with interest. Also, equipment trusts require that there be a market for the equipment. How could an American sleeper be sold to pay its mortgage? Who would buy it?
Here is an exercise: Suppose you got a sleeping car for free. Draw up a business plan for running it profitably. I don't think it can be done. So, if you got it free and couldn't break even, how could you justify paying for it?

To somewhat perfect Mr G's posting, an Equipment Trust is essentially a Rent-a-Center lease purchase arrangement. That is, the relationship between the certificate holder and the railroad is leesor and leesee. At the expiration of the lease, title is conveyed to the leesee.

This finance arragement presupposes that there is a ready market for the equipment covered. In the case of freight locomotives and cars, this of course is a non-issue. But with intercity rail passenger cars, who else is out there? (forget VIA or Mexico; China might be a long shot).

Therefore the only means at hand is to write your Congress (cirtter/man/woman)Member.
Don't waste your time with the Administration - they've moved on!

Okay, okay, I get the picture now.

The bottom line is this: Amtrak LD riders aren't exactly screwed, but the cars themselves are going to get rattier-looking as Amtrak's capital budget goes to foot the bill for the NEC. I've looked around a bit, and I haven't found any signs that Amtrak has any plans for the LD fleet, whether they're Superliners or Viewliners. As far as I can tell, the whole capital budget is targeted for the NEC.

Or did I miss something here? Sorry if this sounds a bit run-on.

Mr Damon, you are right. There may be a few bucks for other things, but not for new LD cars. There will not be money for LD cars unless the whole political climate changes. It isn't even a matter of this Administration being replaced in 2008.

There's mention in one of Gunn's recent long range capital plans to have the Heritage fleet that remains (i.e. diners and crew cars) completely replaced with new cars. These would be "new" cars for the eastern long distance trains that is. I think you will find that the "crew only Heritage car" will be replaced with a new styled Viewliner for crew and revenue passengers. At least some capacity in First Class sleeper would be increased if it is a "mix," as it should be.

The old Viewliner prototypes from the 1980s have been hauled into Bear, Delaware shops for review and plans for Viewliner II cars, so to speak. Not sure if anything tangible is coming forth. But of course, these "replacement cars" require funding Amtrak to the tune of Gunn's $1.8 billion request, and the administration as not been giving Amtrak the $1.8 billion in recent years.

But if Amtrak did find replacement for the Heritage Crew Car, not sure if I would make a swift decision and send it to the scrap yard. It could be assigned elsewhere in the system to further increase capacity (in place of a Superliner Transition Dorm/Sleeper that becomes revenue space perhaps?).

And the existing long distance fleet is getting a makeover to some extent. Gone are the orange cushions in the Superliner I sleepers! Amtrak still seems to be pushing for renovating its EXISTING Superliner sleepers. I did have the great fortune to ride a newly refurbished Superliner I sleeper, and it was a very nice experience. The Viewliners are also getting a light overhaul (i.e. new cushions and carpeting particularly). I just hope the program continues to be funded.

But are we going to see a big order of sleepers, lounges, coaches and diners for the long distance fleet - as mentioned above - not with the current regime and attitude in DC.

On the corridor routes (and long distance day trips), some trains are getting refurbished cafe and business class cars. Course most have been returned to the NEC for Metroliner service in the absence of Acela Express. But once that debacle is fixed, they'll be re-deployed throughout the system. In March 2005, I had the privledge of riding in an Amfleet car assigned to the Clocker that had half table seating and half "club style seating" with leather chairs and upgraded cup holders, arm rests, and trays. At one time Amtrak was supposed to launch a "premium class" that included these cars and their leather seats etc. Not sure if this will turn into just regular business class or not.

Mr. Damon's question is probably coming six years too late. In 1999 there probably was a dot-com multibillionaire or two who may have been receptive to splurging for his own private mini-Pullman Company. Sleepers cars might even have held their value better than some stocks of the era since (in small quantities) they can be resold for a substantial fraction of their original value.

I think Amtrak is on the right track, so to speak, with equipment.

There are a couple things they can do in the short term:
First, they need to get wrecked cars back on the road as soon as possible. You'll find in the budget that a big chunk of the government funding goes to capital improvements. Relatively, not much goes to actual operation of the railroad.
There's a huge backlog of wrecked units, but Amtrak is slowly but surely churning through them.

Second, Amtrak really needs to maximize revenue-generating space. They need to sell some Roomettes in the Superliner Transition sleepers year round (this may help them get away with only running 1 full sleeping car during the off season). They need to build SOMETHING into the big empty space in the Heritage Dorms. Lastly, they need to forbid crew members from taking up more than 1 table in Diners.
On my Sunset Limited trip, there were 2 tables reserved for crew members, and 1 for the dining car manager. There were only 2-3 crew members eating at any given time. This is unacceptable. There should only be 1 table reserved for the crew.
In the Superliner Transition car, there is a "conductor's booth" at one end of the car, with tables and ample workspace, yet it went unused the entire trip. There is no reason why the conductor has to set up in the dining car when that booth was there for that purpose.

For the long term, yes there is a need for additional equipment, but we must be careful not to call for new equipment just because the existing equipment is "old". The Heritage equipment is built like tanks and can probably see another 50 years of service given proper maintenance. The question now becomes:
"When will the cost of parts exceed the cost of new equipment?"
That I can't answer.

Amtrak certainly needs additional sleepers and diners (and perhaps lounges). But given the unlikelihood of any new equipment acquisitions over the next few years, a better question might be how can Amtrak make better use of its existing sleepers?

I will once again state my opinion that the Cardinal should be re-equipped with Superliners, even though that would preclude running north of WAS. As scarce as Superliners are, Viewliners are even more scarce. If they could assign even a single Superliner sleeper to the Cardinal, that would result in an increase in first class capacity, as 1 Superliner = ~1.5 Viewliners. (The Cardinal has been running with only one Viewliner, and no diner.)

Also, while I think that discontinuing the Three Rivers was a mistake, one benefit to the discontinuation in theory should be some Viewliners freed for use elsewhere. How many Viewliners were assigned to the Three Rivers route, four?

hsr_fan wrote:If they could assign even a single Superliner sleeper to the Cardinal, that would result in an increase in first class capacity, as 1 Superliner = ~1.5 Viewliners.

Do you mean one Superliner sleeper in a train made up of other Superliner cars, or one Superliner sleeper in a train of single-level cars?

If you mean the latter, that wouldn't be possible, as there would be no way to walk between the Superliner car and the other cars. Superliners are an "all or nothing" deal.

David Cole wrote:Do you mean one Superliner sleeper in a train made up of other Superliner cars, or one Superliner sleeper in a train of single-level cars?

I mean an entire consist of Superliners. If they could put together a minimal consist of one Superliner sleeper, a diner, and two or three coaches, that would probably still be superior to the motley assortment of single level equipment currently used for the train.

I've heard that ridership increased significantly once the Cardinal was extended to NYC. If you run Superliner equipment, you can only go as far as Washington. So it's beneficial to keep it single-level. It desperately needs another Viewliner and checked baggage service, though.

Two key points come out in this thread thus far:

For the most part, we all agree Mr Gunn needs the funding he requests for "The State of Good Repair." Please remember: It's not just the Administration, it's Congress as well who cuts his request down. For FY06, Amtrak requested about $1.9B. White House proposed $0.5B. House allocated $1.17B. Quite a set of deltas.

I think most of us also agree Amtrak needs the funding for new capital equipment. I think we can also agree that the present political climate will not support that funding for Amtrak.

John Perkowski