Railroad Forums 

  • Hours of service regs.

  • General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.
General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.

Moderator: Robert Paniagua

 #187111  by daybyday
 
Travel time to and from the home should NOT be counted as part of the 8 hour rest period. But in a separate category.
I think the bigger question here is why can't the unions get the hours of service regulations revised. The current railroad hours-of-service laws permit, and many railroad carriers require, the most burdensome fatigue-inducing work schedule of any federally regulated transportation mode in this country. A comparison of the modes is revealing. The aviation, highway, marine and rail modes all have federally imposed limits on the amount of work and rest in a 24-hour period. The aviation and highway modes also impose weekly limits. Only aviation has monthly and annual limits. To keep the comparison simple, consider the number of hours an employee of each mode is permitted to work in the course of a 30-day month:

- A commercial airline pilot can fly up to 100 hours per month;
- A truck driver can be on duty up to about 260 hours per month;
- Shipboard personnel, at sea, cannot operate more than 360 hours per month, and only 270 hours per month when in port; and
- Locomotive engineers can operate a train up to 432 hours per month, which equates to more than 14 hours a day on each of those 30 days.

We fail to understand why a locomotive engineer, or other train crew member, is permitted to work more than 4 times longer than an airline pilot, and 1.5 times longer than a truck driver.

Let me emphasize that we are not advocating reducing everybody's hours to 100 hours a month. Our point is that allowing any transportation worker in a safety-sensitive position-operating powerful equipment through our Nation's cities-to work more than 400 hours per month is excessive, if not downright unconscionable.

The Safety Board also believes that the hours-of-service laws have no scientific basis. In fairness to those who framed the laws in 1907, there was little more than anecdotal knowledge about fatigue at that time. But in the last two decades, the scientific and research communities have conducted extensive in-depth studies of sleep and fatigue. We now know a great deal about the structure of sleep, the effects of human biological or circadian rhythms, and the debilitating effects that cumulative sleep loss has on alertness and health.

The railroad hours-of-service laws prescribe only maximum hours on duty and a minimum amount of rest in a 24-hour period. They do not take into account (1) how human circadian rhythms interact with the time of day when the work/rest periods take place, (2) the cumulative effects of working an unlimited number of successive days, or (3) the long-term health effects of various work/rest schedules. In short, it is time for a substantial scientifically-based revision to the Hours of Service Act. Unfortunately, little meaningful progress has been made, we believe, because the solution requires a fundamental change in habits and culture - and neither is easy to change. Labor has grown accustomed to the extra money earned and companies save money by employing fewer operators. This was made evident in testimony given at a recent Safety Board hearing on railroad safety. We must all recognize that fatigue is debilitating, and that fewer workers and more overtime are the fundamental ingredients for fatigue.

Taken from: http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/s980916.htm


My question is this: airlines, steamship lines and trucking companies are all in business to make money, just as railroads are. Why then, has it been impossible to get some type of revision to the hours of service law?


I understand that it is tough because RR operations aren't as scheduled which leads to the stange hours, but I believe even a simple cap on the amount of hours worked for a given period would have a significant impact on the reduction of fatigued workers.


DBD

 #187115  by jg greenwood
 
"Because the solution requires a fundamental change in habits and culture." Simply put, GREED! Many of my co-workers structure their lifestyle on the $ made when business is booming and the board is turning like a top. Would you believe I've heard some of my fellow engineers lament the fact that they can "barely exist on our $1,400.00/wk. guarantee." Give me a break! That's roughly $73,000/yr. Can you say, "living beyond your means?"
Combine the profit-hungry carriers with greedy union members and their $1,500.00/month house payments and you're likely to agree, the current system will never change.
Last edited by jg greenwood on Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #187121  by SnoozerZ49
 
Please correct me if I misunderstood the point of this post but are you suggesting that the carrier be penalized over an employees availability due to that employees choice to live a distance from his home terminal?

I have worked on a carrier that had for all practical purposes one home terminal. There were however over two dozen start points within that home terminal area. The drive to the sign up point was not covered however the return travel time to the home terminal was precalculated for each sign up point regardless of the actual travel time of the employee. This time was caculated into the "rested and available" time for the next work day.

If an employee lives a distance from his sign up point I really don't see why that travel should be calculated into rest. If the ride bothers you, move closer, if you can't afford housing near work, quit and get a job where you can afford it.

 #188653  by Aji-tater
 
"Why then, has it been impossible to get some type of revision to the hours of service law? "

Actually the law HAS been revised - until the 1960's train crews were allowed to work 16 hours, and there were plenty of guys marking off with 15:59 so they could turn right around in 8. It was cut back to 14 hours for a few years and then back to 12 hours.

There is another problem with arriving at something that works is the use of off-duty time. If you have a 45 minute drive home, grab a bite to eat, and a shower, you may fall asleep an hour and a half into your 8 hours rest. Now a 2-hour call wakes you up, so you're dealing with 4 1/2 hours actual sleep. But - but - but - there will always be a few guys who would take their 12 or 14 hours rest, if they had it, to do anything from going to a ball game to hitting the bars to spending time with their family and STILL only get 4 or 5 hours sleep. So longer time off would be no guarantee of rested employees but it would certainly help.

And shouldn't this thread be combined with another one on this same forum, dealing with the same topic?

 #189034  by jg greenwood
 
IIRC, the hours of service remained at 16' until the very early 70s'.
 #191272  by CSX Conductor
 
daybyday wrote:We fail to understand why a locomotive engineer, or other train crew member, is permitted to work more than 4 times longer than an airline pilot, and 1.5 times longer than a truck driver.
The answer may be as simple as this: If a pilot falls victim of fatigue the plane crashes. If a trucker falls asleep at the wheel he will go off the road. If an engineer falls asleep at the helm the rails keep him going in the right direction. Remember, no steering wheel. :P
daybyday wrote:Why then, has it been impossible to get some type of revision to the hours of service law?
Because as another member posted, the HOS has already been reduced before. Twelve hours is not as long as 16 hours.
daybyday wrote:Our point is that allowing any transportation worker in a safety-sensitive position-operating powerful equipment through our Nation's cities-to work more than 400 hours per month is excessive, if not downright unconscionable.
Believe it or not most people have enough sense to mark-off once and a while when the hours start catching up to them. I honestly don't thing 400 hours per month is excessive. Some people that complain about the long days need to get nice cushy office jobs which will give them M-F 9-5 inside away from the weather. :P
 #191362  by jg greenwood
 
CSX Conductor wrote:
daybyday wrote:We fail to understand why a locomotive engineer, or other train crew member, is permitted to work more than 4 times longer than an airline pilot, and 1.5 times longer than a truck driver.
The answer may be as simple as this: If a pilot falls victim of fatigue the plane crashes. If a trucker falls asleep at the wheel he will go off the road. If an engineer falls asleep at the helm the rails keep him going in the right direction. Remember, no steering wheel. :P
daybyday wrote:Why then, has it been impossible to get some type of revision to the hours of service law?
Because as another member posted, the HOS has already been reduced before. Twelve hours is not as long as 16 hours.
daybyday wrote:Our point is that allowing any transportation worker in a safety-sensitive position-operating powerful equipment through our Nation's cities-to work more than 400 hours per month is excessive, if not downright unconscionable.
Believe it or not most people have enough sense to mark-off once and a while when the hours start catching up to them. I honestly don't thing 400 hours per month is excessive. Some people that complain about the long days need to get nice cushy office jobs which will give them M-F 9-5 inside away from the weather. :P
400'/month isn't excessive? That's 13+ hours/day. My guess is you're very young, talk to me when you're 50 instead of 30. :wink:
 #191501  by clearblock
 
CSX Conductor wrote: If an engineer falls asleep at the helm the rails keep him going in the right direction. Remember, no steering wheel.
In many recent NTSB accident reports, the engineer "kept going" right through a stop signal and into another train at full speed.

While the engineer may not need the high level of alertness of an airplane pilot, the engineer needs to be at least as alert as a trucker. Yes, the rails "keep you going" but you need to be alert to respond to signals, speed limits and slack action.

Truckers do need to steer but they only have one trailing load to worry about and a much shorter stopping distance.

Falling asleep on the job = disaster in any occupation involving moving equipment.