Historical electrified mainline railroads

Other than IC and CSS&SB, did Chicago or Chi railroads ever consider/plan electrification? Was anything ever actually started, other than the prior mentioned?

nittany4 wrote:
Thanks, I assumed they used the electrics to haul the steam trains into the city, just like the PRR and I suppose NYC did into Manhattan... but then they eventually electrified the entire line;

There's only one "they" that went on to the electrify the "entire" line and that's the PRR. Everything else I'd classify as terminal/tunnel electrification or suburban electrification (in the case of the NYC and LIRR, as an extension of terminal electrification). So considering the amount of suburban electtrication there was (NH, NYC, LIRR, DL&W, RDG, and IC), the PRR was the exception, not the rule (their "Standard Railroad" moniker not withstanding). And even PRR's mainline electrification was not an extension of the New York City terminal electrification which was 3rd rail just like the LIRR remains today. So in reality, no U.S. railroad has extended terminal or suburban electrification to a significant portion of their railroad outside those area.

(Lines are never as clear as you'd like them to be and the New Haven is a special case, particularly since their electrification is clearly not an extension of the NYC's. But it never went beyond suburban territory so I class it as suburban electrification although I can see a case being made that it was more than that. Of course, now that the wires have been extended to Boston, it's a different story).

Mr. Stone, i and any other "New Haven hand" around here such as Messrs. Weaver, Nelligan, Vondrak, "Sarge", myself, will state that the New Haven had every intention of electrifying 'all the way to Boston'. They simply ran out of money - and there was no "feddybuck trough" at which to feed back then..

The same applies to my MILW (emplouyed 1970-81), which never had the $$$ to complete Avery-Othello.

But as I've noted at other electrification related topics here, a good picture of "what might have been" can be found in Middleton: "When the Steam Railroads Electrified" ISBN 0890240280

Mr. Norman, I guess I did have vague recollection of having heard that in the past. And as I said, I do recognize the New Haven's as being more than just suburban electrification but since it never made it east of New Haven, I can't move it into the same category as the Pennsy's.

I concur about the book. I've had it since it was published (along with his books on trolleys and interurbans).

I second GBN's suggestion of the Middleton book - it's been reprinted recently and is worth every penny.

To respond to Carter's questions - I don't think any other Chicago lines ever seriously thought about electrifying, but I'm surprised CB&Q didn't electrify their Aurora suburban lines. It seems the perfect candidate with dense traffic on one mainline, as opposed to Northwestern and MILW having many lines from downtown to the 'burbs. I'm not surprised RI didn't electrify, as they were always broke, but it also meets the qualifications I laid out above - dense traffic pattern on on main. It further meets one more criteria from the ICRR model - close stations, especially on the Beverly branch. But, the Rock was perpetually broke. If you look at pictures of their 1970's operations, it's a museum. I can't think of one road in financial hot water during the 1970's that ran crappier power, including PC, EL, RDG, MILW, L&HR... It's material for a different thread at this point, but what a Rock-inclusive Amtrak would've looked like is something to discuss some day.

Well. this gets a bit off the subject of this thread, but since I grew up on an electrified railroad (NYC Harlem Division) and once thought that all railroads of any consequence were electrically operated, here's a very brief summary of electric operations in North America:

1) Canadian National Railways, Montreal terminal (originally built by Canadian Northern). Terminal electrification and suburban operation.

2) Boston & Maine, Hoosac Tunnel. Freight and passenger, for smoke abatement.

3) New Haven Railroad, suburban and through trains New York to New Haven, electric main line freight operation Bay Ridge (Brooklyn) to New Haven.

4) New York Central, third rail suburban electrification. Through trains hauled by electric locomotives. Limited electric freight operation.

5) Pennsylvania Railroad. The big one, the only comprehensive freight/passenger/suburban/terminal electrification in North America.

6) Cleveland Union Terminal, electric operation of through passenger trains only (no suburban service) Collinwood to Linndale, Cleveland.

&) Detroit terminal and tunnel, NYC. Tunnel electrification, freight and through passenger.

9) Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, tunnel electrification in Baltimore. Freight and through passenger. Third-rail suburban electrification on Staten Island, passenger only.

10) Chicago, South Shore, and South Bend. Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee. Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin. Basically interurban electric railroads, with suburban passenger and mainline freight operations more like those of the "steam railroads". Of the three, only South Shore survives, and only as a suburban passenger operation. Electric freight ended some years ago.

11) Illinois Central Railroad, suburban electrification. Undertaken mainly for smoke abatement, but long-haul passenger and freight trains were never electrically operated.

12) Milwaukee Road. The only large-scale, mainline freight electrification besides New Haven and PRR. However, traffic was always light, and "the gap" between Avery, ID and Othello, WA was never closed. Electric operation ended on the Washington State trackage in 1972, and shortly thereafter on the Montana trackage. After 1981, the mainline itself was abandoned west of Terry, MT.

And that's about it. I've left out Key System and SP's Interurban Electric, the Sacramento Northern and other interurbans, and the BC Rail Tumbler Ridge electrification, which came and went in the space of less than 20 years. I've also left out coal-haulers Deseret Western and Black Mesa and Lake Powell, and the abortive Mexican mainline electrification of the 1980s (some of which may be re-used for surburban service). I've tried to keep it short.

Sorry Nellie, not quite it:
DL&W: Suburban electrification: Hoboken to Dover, Gladstone, and Montclair. Freight and intercity passenger ran with steam/diesel under the wires.
Reading: Philadelphia suburban electrification to various points.

I personally don't include the South Shore because of its interurban origins but again, that's an area where the lines to divide categories aren't as clear as we'd like.

Henry Ford's Detroit Toledo and Ironton electrification, ended when his experimental locomotive used too much juice from the mill's powerplant at Rouge.

CarterB wrote:Other than IC and CSS&SB, did Chicago or Chi railroads ever consider/plan electrification? Was anything ever actually started, other than the prior mentioned?

There could be debate on this but the Chicago, Aurora and Elgin ran between Chicago, Auroro, Elgin and Batavia was
electrified with mostly third rail and some stretches of overhead. It ran with interurban type cars but it was considered a
part of the national network with common carrier carload freight service. It ran on the elevated structure in Chicago.
Ditto for the Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee which ran between Chicago and Milwaukee. The North Shore was the
better of the two and it lasted until January, 1963. It ran under overhead wire except for a short stretch leaving the el.
A little bit of this still operates as the "Skokie Swift". In my opinion, it was criminal that this excellent double track railroad
was shut down and torn up. Most of the interurban type cars were cut up for scrap but a few got saved and can still be seen
in various trolley museums. I actually rode this line a few times and it was a fantastic ride. I rode it a couple of months
before the end and it was still a class operation right up till the last day.
I think others will also respond on here about this topic.
Noel Weaver

Nellie, a couple more ...

Virginian Mullens WV to Roanoke, notable for being 11KV 25 Hz like PRR/NH. E33 engines went on to 2nd career as NH EF4 and later PC.

GN Cascade Tunnel electrification (with 3 phase power/double trolley wires!), replaced by Skykomish - Wenatchee also 11KV/25 HZ with some locos that eventually went to PRR.

Jon

We are kind of off topic on here but it is an interesting discussion. Another electrification that comes to mind is the CNR
electrification through the Mount Royal Tunnel in Montreal. It was originally created as a way to get through trains in and
out of Montreal without having to use steam locomotives through the tunnel. Things changed over the years and the
electric motors are gone although some have been preserved but the railroad is today a commuter hauler north out of
Central Station, Montreal and has all new equipment among other things.
Noel Weaver

I agree we're drifiting (maybe this needs to be split and moved or something like that) but...

1) Where the CA&E operate under wire? Living now just slightly north of CA&E territory (along the MILW West line and wishing I could see a City of Everywhere pass through each night), I've never heard that before.

2) I too grew up thinking all railroads of consequence had electrifications. First, Chicago south suburbs along the IC; then in NJ along the DL&W. Living in the New York City area and being a young boy, I assumed "real" commuter operations were electric and all that diesel stuff was "pretend" commuter operations.

Noel Weaver wrote:We are kind of off topic on here but it is an interesting discussion. Another electrification that comes to mind is the CNR
electrification through the Mount Royal Tunnel in Montreal. It was originally created as a way to get through trains in and
out of Montreal without having to use steam locomotives through the tunnel. Things changed over the years and the
electric motors are gone although some have been preserved but the railroad is today a commuter hauler north out of
Central Station, Montreal and has all new equipment among other things.
Noel Weaver

When I arrived in Montreal from Toronto 8 years ago I noticed some overhead in the throat leading to the station but didn't see if any trains were using it.

As Quebec has huge supplies of hydro power they would be wise to use much more electrification.

I guess it will always be a difference of opinion about the Insull Lines in/around Chicago as to whether they were interurbans or commuter rail lines. CSS&SB seems to have been considered a 'main line' railroad rather than interurban, whereas CNS&M and CA&E interurbans, yet IC electric were called 'commuter'.

What I am wondering, is that if Chicago was so hepped up about smoke abatement, why only the IC? I suppose the then Hyde Park brahmans must have had something to do with it? Surely with steam locos by the hundreds operating into IC Central Station, La Salle, Grand Central, Northwestern, Union, and Dearborn, there was plenty of "smoke" to abate downtown.

Interesting info also can be found here: http://www.trains.com/ctr/print.aspx?c=a&id=43
and here: http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/mainline.htm
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_e ... ted_States

The DL&W also had plans to wire to Scranton but the stockmarket crash, the following depression, the hope of the diesel locomotive, and the falling anthracite market put those plans on hold. Likewise the PRR ditched thier idea to wire over the mountains from Harrisburg to Altoona and maybe even around the big curve to Pittsburg for a lot of the same reasons.
I don't believe the NYC was into juice as much. Smoke abatement in Cleveland necessitated it there and was the reason for Harmon and White Plains to GCT being third railed. The hill west out of Albany was looked at but otherwise,the Water Level Route was in no real need of electirfication. The NY,NH and H needed it to get into NYC, so it was a natural extension on heavily travelled routes like Canaan and Danbury as well as the mainline to New Haven. There the wire runs out where the money ran out. I wonder, though, if the B&M, GN, and MLW would have electrified where they did if they did not have the tunnels?