Historic Times on the Corridor

Hi All,

Going back into ancient history and my memory, the Congressional headed by a GG-1 made it from Penn Station, NYC, to Phillie, non-stop, in about one hour. Time enough for the residents of the Philadelphia area to down one mixed drink, and have a nice chat with the other passengers. It was a normal commute for them. I would continue on to Wash. DC.

pennsy wrote:Hi All,

Going back into ancient history and my memory, the Congressional headed by a GG-1 made it from Penn Station, NYC, to Phillie, non-stop, in about one hour. Time enough for the residents of the Philadelphia area to down one mixed drink, and have a nice chat with the other passengers. It was a normal commute for them. I would continue on to Wash. DC.

The best timing on the PRR was the Afternoon Congressional which ran 1 hour, 29 minutes Penn Station to 30th Street with stops at Newark and North Philadelphia. The Pennsy never ran a non-stop, and the Afternoon Congressional was the one of the very few trains that bypassed Trenton.

prr60 wrote:The best timing on the PRR was the Afternoon Congressional which ran 1 hour, 29 minutes Penn Station to 30th Street with stops at Newark and North Philadelphia.

You remember in 1967 they speeded the Congressional-- 3 hr 20 min to Washington instead of 3-35. NY Penn to Phila 30th was shown in the timetable as 80 minutes, still with the stops at Newark and N Phila. I haven't tried to figure how reasonable that is, but that's what the public timetable showed.

As for an Acela today, I'd say 60 (or maybe 61) minutes is a better guess than 59, but none of us has a track chart accurate enough to pin it down for certain. That's running time with no delay, not schedule time.

..While I cannot backup the following story with schedule data from the time, the story is still in of itself interesting....

When I was commuting back and forth to college in the early 70's, I would take what is now the North Jersey Coast Line from the Jersey shore to Newark. This was when the PRR and the Jersey Central split the task of providing service; the CNJ terminated at Newark while the PRR changed engines at South Amboy and ran electric into Penn Station, New York.

I liked taking the PRR; I enjoyed watching the engine change and the difference in smoothness or ride and rate of acceleration with the GG-1 was impressive. I also got to meet and know several of the Conductors and learned a lot about the PRR in doing so.

One of those conductors was Jack Phillipson, who lived in or near Point Pleasant Beach. The PRR had become the Penn-Central and was starting to heavily promote the "new high-speed Metroliner Service" between New York and Washington. I was remarking about the 100 mile-per-hour plus speed of the trains, and he just smiled and let me finish my thoughts... I still remember his reply...

"...people are making such a big deal about the service being "fast" and "new"... ...People don't remember, but during World War II, we ran "Clocker" service between New York and Philadelphia at 125 miles per hour, every hour, with M1 steam locomotives; and we made the trip in one hour. So I don't understand what is so fast and new about it; it has taken us 30 years just to get back somewhere near where we used to be."

Like I said, I cannot back up his statement with schedule data, but Mr. Phillipson was a long-time PRR man. He knew his stuff and was not prone to exaggeration. While I cannot imagine that an M-1 steam engine ever ran through the tunnels in and out of New York Penn Station; they no doubt did run from Jersey City. And whether it was from New York or Jersey City; an hour "exactly" or "just about" an hour; it still was an amazing testament from that time!

Hi,

I probably can confirm most of that since even though I was a kid during the WWII time frame, I did take that route. I was told that I was on the Congressional, but that is what I was told. I was also told that the train was the fastest of the routes in the area and that the GG-1 hauled train would average 70 + mph between Penn Station, NYC and Union Station, Wash DC. That included all stops. I enjoyed the meals on the train. But that was when the PRR was the PRR.

Surely you're joking, Mr. PRRTechFan.

PRRTechFan wrote: ..While I cannot backup the following story with schedule data from the time, the story is still in of itself interesting....

When I was commuting back and forth to college in the early 70's, I would take what is now the North Jersey Coast Line from the Jersey shore to Newark. This was when the PRR and the Jersey Central split the task of providing service; the CNJ terminated at Newark while the PRR changed engines at South Amboy and ran electric into Penn Station, New York.

I liked taking the PRR; I enjoyed watching the engine change and the difference in smoothness or ride and rate of acceleration with the GG-1 was impressive. I also got to meet and know several of the Conductors and learned a lot about the PRR in doing so.

One of those conductors was Jack Phillipson, who lived in or near Point Pleasant Beach. The PRR had become the Penn-Central and was starting to heavily promote the "new high-speed Metroliner Service" between New York and Washington. I was remarking about the 100 mile-per-hour plus speed of the trains, and he just smiled and let me finish my thoughts... I still remember his reply...

"...people are making such a big deal about the service being "fast" and "new"... ...People don't remember, but during World War II, we ran "Clocker" service between New York and Philadelphia at 125 miles per hour, every hour, with M1 steam locomotives; and we made the trip in one hour. So I don't understand what is so fast and new about it; it has taken us 30 years just to get back somewhere near where we used to be."

Like I said, I cannot back up his statement with schedule data, but Mr. Phillipson was a long-time PRR man. He knew his stuff and was not prone to exaggeration. While I cannot imagine that an M-1 steam engine ever ran through the tunnels in and out of New York Penn Station; they no doubt did run from Jersey City. And whether it was from New York or Jersey City; an hour "exactly" or "just about" an hour; it still was an amazing testament from that time!

I think your friend's recollection was faulty. By WWII the PRR had converted all (or virtually all) NY - Phila service to electric with GG-1 power. They certainly did not operate much if any service out of Jersey City.

This is not to say those old PRR trains were not fast. They were fast. 100 mph was a pretty good clip for a GG-1 on jointed rail. And it is possible in the far less regulated days of yesteryear that some trains pushed past 100mph on occasion. But scheduled 125mph service with one hour running times using steam engines in the 1940's is a railroad urban legend. In their day the Metroliners were the fastest scheduled trains that ever operated on the old PRR, and today's Acela are (generally) faster still.

Lucius Kwok wrote:Surely you're joking, Mr. PRRTechFan.

Hard to tell-- but no doubt Mr Phillipson was. FWIW, Jersey City-Philadelphia thru PRR trains seem to have ended in 1938.

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Split from the Question: How fast could Amtrak run Phila - NYC thread, and moved the Fallen Flags: Pennsylvania Railroad Forum.

I wonder if these fast WW II speeds had anything to do with the very fatal pile up at Frankford Junction in 1943.

Quite likely, Mr. Kevikens, considering excessive speed as well as "assuming' track conditions ahead were the factors in the April 25, 1946 CB&Q "rear ending' at Naperville, IL.

The two similar 1950 LIRR incidents at Rockville Centre and Richmond Hill were attributed to operator failure to adhere to signals. Throw in the Oct 30, 1972 IC incident at Kensington IL for good measure as well.

But no doubt the PRR, Q, and LIRR incidents of failure to read and react to lineside signals were factors in the ICC imposition of the maximum speed, absent cab signals, "not to exceed 80mph". Even though Locomotive Engineers are now "licensed" by the FRA and existing Books of Rules are reviewed and sanctioned by that agency, it is no wonder that wherever passenger trains operate in any sizeable volume, cab signals and automatic train stop are "the standard".

Frankford was a hot box at an unfortunate location, not excessive speed. Unusually, it happened too quickly for nearby employees to get the train stopped. I imagine it’s in the ICC historical reports.

Bill

Bill West wrote:I imagine it’s in the ICC historical reports.

This should be the link to I.C.C. Historical Railroad Investigation Reports (1911-1994):

http://dotlibrary1.specialcollection.ne ... _railroads

It mentions the actual elapsed time of this nonstop train from Washington.

Here's a link for newer reports:

https://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/R_Acc.htm