High Speed Rail HSR (Houston - DFW Dallas Fort Worth) (FKA Texas Central )

The Proposal of running HSR over the TRE actually makes sense... but misses Arlington unless they run a branch down from the Centerport area.

Take it a step further... If you have electrification in place for high-speed rail, hand the TRE over to DART as light rail running over heavy rail. At the volumes they carry, its better suited to operate as light rail. That might allow DART to increase frequencies between Dallas and Irving, which is likely the heaviest point to point section...

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Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2024 1:53 pm It's curious to me why, other than one seat ride, they are extending to Fort Worth. If they wanted 30 minute train travel between the two, even as a feeder for TexHSR, couldn't they just run the TRE at non-stop 79mph?

Or could the TexHSR run non-stop at 79 on TRE rails? Would be a lot cheaer to put in a few passing sidings to dodge locals than building all new ROW. I think this is why Brightline did so well - they did a lot of upgrades but only new railway on the last 40(?) miles into Orlando.

The signaling and trains initially proposed and approved by the FRA are Japanese made, and bespoke specifically for the Texas Central HSR dedicated tracks between Dallas and Houston. The existing TRE corridor do not and probably never will use the bespoke Japanese equipment. Hence the extension to Fort Worth requiring to be dedicated HSR tracks.
Better to just run express TRE trains on TRE tracks.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:07 pm The Proposal of running HSR over the TRE actually makes sense... but misses Arlington unless they run a branch down from the Centerport area.

Take it a step further... If you have electrification in place for high-speed rail, hand the TRE over to DART as light rail running over heavy rail. At the volumes they carry, its better suited to operate as light rail. That might allow DART to increase frequencies between Dallas and Irving, which is likely the heaviest point to point section...

Trains are trains in the USA! Wrong!
Light rail trains are regulated by the Federal Transit Agency (FTA) and commuter trains are regulated by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA). Different agencies, different regulations. Regulations that make almost impossible to run both train types over the same tracks.
DART has the Orange light rail line to Irving, and the TRE line to Irving, running on completely different tracks.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 8:08 pm Trains are trains in the USA! Wrong!
Light rail trains are regulated by the Federal Transit Agency (FTA) and commuter trains are regulated by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA). Different agencies, different regulations. Regulations that make almost impossible to run both train types over the same tracks.
DART has the Orange light rail line to Irving, and the TRE line to Irving, running on completely different tracks.

Tell that to MTA Maryland. Light Rail there north of North Avenue runs on NS railroad track and are time separated. The entire system is regulated by both. Also don't forget that MARC is a department under MTA Maryland, so FTA has sway over it. FTA may defer to FRA in some cases, but per my time there, it's both.

Admin note.

Amtrak is only peripheral to this conversation. This thread is moving to General Discussion, HSR.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 8:08 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:07 pm The Proposal of running HSR over the TRE actually makes sense... but misses Arlington unless they run a branch down from the Centerport area.

Take it a step further... If you have electrification in place for high-speed rail, hand the TRE over to DART as light rail

Light rail trains are regulated by the Federal Transit Agency (FTA) and commuter trains are regulated by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).

Both points are valid here. TRE does not exactly move Metra-levels of people and it seems a light rail concept might be more appropriate, but it's on the AAR map and thus subject to FRA, not FTA. Perhaps the solution is to run something like Stadler self-propelled cars in a light rail-ish concept under FRA rules. Then you could still run intercity passenger trains like the Eagle or Texas HSR as well.

Either way it does not change the fact that TRE does not serve Arlington nor DFW, which probably really hurts both TRE and any tenants such as Texas HSR. TRE basically avoids any stations of consequence other than downtowns Dallas and Fort Worth, which has got to be detrimental to a commuter train. It also does not run to any outter suburbs, which has got to be detrimental to any commuter trains.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:28 pm Both points are valid here. TRE does not exactly move Metra-levels of people and it seems a light rail concept might be more appropriate, but it's on the AAR map and thus subject to FRA, not FTA. Perhaps the solution is to run something like Stadler self-propelled cars in a light rail-ish concept under FRA rules. Then you could still run intercity passenger trains like the Eagle or Texas HSR as well.

Either way it does not change the fact that TRE does not serve Arlington nor DFW, which probably really hurts both TRE and any tenants such as Texas HSR. TRE basically avoids any stations of consequence other than downtowns Dallas and Fort Worth, which has got to be detrimental to a commuter train. It also does not run to any outter suburbs, which has got to be detrimental to any commuter trains.

The NCTCOG has its headquarters in Arlington which desires to have some form of public transit in a city that refuses to support one. Hence the routing of the HSR line through Arlington. Don't all of you think substituting HSR for public transit is the wrong way to do it?

Time separating FTA and FRA regulated trains is a way to do so on the same tracks, never-the-less not at the same time. How are you going to run High speed trains, commuter trains, and light rail trains on the same tracks at the same time? Hence, an almost impossible feat.
The reason why Arlington has no transit agency at all, including a schedule bus system, is because they have not formed one, or joined another nearby transit agency. Trinity Metro exists in Fort Worth with the requirement of a half cent sales tax, or DART in Dallas with a similar but larger one cent sales tax. Arlington uses their state allowed additional one cent sales tax to finance building stadiums for the Cowboys and Rangers, not on public transit.
Even if the TRE uses the UP tracks thru Arlington, there would not be a station located in Arlington because of the lack of financial support.
And I disagree that the TRE does not have stations between Dallas and Fort Worth. There are at least two train stations in Irving. The TRE uses ex Rock Island tracks, which both cities Fort Worth and Dallas bought when the Rock Island RR entered bankruptcy. And to add, Irving supports DART with a full one cent sales tax.
NCTCOG (North Central Texas Council of Governments) headquarters is in Arlington. They greatly desire to have public transit in a city that refuses to support one. Hence the routing of their proposed HSR line thru Arlington. Sorry, HSR is not a local public transit agency.

Sure, there are train stations past Irving, but the ridership is quite low.

Hurst-Bell and Richland Hills average 200-250 riders per day, and West Irving is only boarding about 170 per day.

A question for the Texas folk…

Metra has vectors fanning out in multiple directions to move people in and around Chicagoland. What is the current proposal for the DFW metroplex? One route? Two? Many?

The DART network has built up similar to what you see in Chicago -- fanning out pretty much in all directions from downtown. It links some of the various business districts together, so it's got purpose and built-in feed.

Fort Worth.... that's another story. The original plan was three routes. What exists today is northwest to Grapevine/DFW (now served by TexRail) and to the east via TRE. A third line from Fort Worth to Granbury (southwest) never materialized. Nothing to the west, southeast, north or northwest. The latter two are where the suburban sprawl has been heading.

The problem with Fort Worth is it's mostly decentralized for work. You've got some companies still headquartered downtown, but the rest of the major employers are spread out around or are in manufacturing (e.g. Lockheed). There's a little entertainment, but the real fun is north of there in the Stockyards. There's a medical district, but for anything serious you're probably going to Dallas.

Four of the top ten biggest employers are GM, DFW Airport, American Airlines, and Lockheed. DFW employees and some lower paid AA workers might use transit, but they get free airport parking and work odd hours. Not exactly transit friendly work schedules...

That leaves Lockheed and GM. I'm pretty certain GM might frown upon it. Lockheed's plant is nowhere near downtown, and I suspect most of their well paid employees aren't living near downtown, either.

Different route discussed: https://www.newsweek.com/proposed-dalla ... te-1923298

Texas High-Speed Rail Route Change Proposed


Downtown Dallas may miss out on a high-speed rail route proposed for the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

In a meeting on Thursday, regional councilors are set to consider a new route to connect Texas' largest metropolitan area by high-speed rail. The proposed route suggests bypassing downtown Dallas following recent hesitation for the project from the Dallas City Council.
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Now, other members of the Regional Transportation Council have put together a different route, omitting the downtown Dallas station and placing one further south.
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Reading that article, the NCTCOG suggested an earlier Dallas city council agreed to an elevated train station downtown. What the NCTCOG and the news reporter failed to understand is that an earlier city council is not today's city council. There have been elections since. The new city council would prefer an underground station downtown today.

And it is nice to see NCTCOG changing the HSR routing similar to what I suggested earlier in an attempt to resolve this issue.

https://www.newsweek.com/texas-bullet-t ... rd-1937117

Texas Bullet Train New Route Moves Forward


On Thursday the North Central Texas Council of Governments' Regional Transportation Council signed off on an additional $1.6 million which could be used to help alter the proposed Dallas to Fort Worth high-speed rail line after the initially suggested route sparked a local backlash.

It came after Dallas city council voted not to approve the planned route in June until the completion of an economic impact study, with members saying they opposed any new above ground rail construction in the city's downtown, Uptown or Victory Park areas.
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Separately the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG) is working on outline proposals for a line connecting Dallas to Fort Worth though this is not expected to get National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) clearance until at least 2025.
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Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:52 am https://www.newsweek.com/texas-bullet-t ... rd-1937117

Texas Bullet Train New Route Moves Forward

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Separately the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG) is working on outline proposals for a line connecting Dallas to Fort Worth though this is not expected to get National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) clearance until at least 2025.
...

The FRA and EPA will never approve an EIS without the major stakeholders approval, and in the DFW area the largest stakeholder is the City of Dallas.
NCTCOG has to figure out how to please Dallas council members before this HSR link between D and FW gets any funding for construction.

Money Money Money: https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texa ... 739326.php

Amtrak gets $64M in federal funds for high speed rail between Dallas and Houston


The much anticipated Texas high-speed rail corridor that promises to connect two major cities continues to advance slowly. The project has now received $63.9 million from the Federal Railroad Administration to establish a route from Dallas to Houston.

The funds were part of a huge $153 million funding rollout by the U.S. Department of Transportation and given to Amtrak, the nation's leading passenger train operator. The funding will assist with operating costs and help advance a project that has been moving forward in fits and starts for the last decade. The proposed route would connect two major Texas metros in about 90 minutes and run along 10 different counties.