Grocery Stores/Food Dist.

How come none of the LI grocery stores can be convinced to try rail again? Especially with the rising gas costs of late? Would it be cost prohibitive to reactivate their sidings? I'm thinking of Waldbaums, Sysco, White Rose. I know King Kullen isn't in Hickville anymore. Does anyone know where they are?

Waldbaum's out of Central Islip. So I guess the question is who's left on Long Island . KIng Kullen distribution is from Connecticut. Not sure of the others.

Waldbaums used to use rail freight service, prior to 1987. They were left with such a bad taste in their mouths by the way they received service prior, and how the LIRR just sent them a letter one day saying that "due to their mainline electrification project, they will no longer receive service."

After that, Waldbaums spent a large sum of money to redesign their whole facility to receive freight by trucks rather than rail. To go back, would be cost prohibitive. We're talking millions of dollars between the mainline switch and redesigning their warehouse again. The cost of fuel isn't that high to justify it.

Jay

Then again, look at the Wakefern Grocery Warehouse Complex (there's several in that parcel of land) in Elizabeth NJ - huge facility, and easy access to rail service (sidings still there and connected - it's right across the street from the Conrail SAA, for heaven's sake). And yet in 10 years I have not seen one freight car at the sidings (if I'm wrong, of course I will apologize, but I swore I read on-line that Wakefern does not use rail freight at that complex, although they certainly could).

Sir Ray, you are correct. That lead is known as the Racetrack, coming out of E-port yard. It is serviced by a Conrail Shared Assets crew based out of Port Newark. I worked that job a few times during my short stint with Conrail. If memory serves me correct, the only customers on it were a paper guy, and two different sidings that services Premier Wine and Spirits, aka, the place that cars go, that used to go to Syosset.

The crew that holds that job is/was old timers, I asked them about the way it used to be, you can see tracks going everywhere, they said there was a job that just spent 12 hours on that tiny portion of railroad everyday.

What kind of foods and products does DiCarlo Foods send or recieve? Where do they distribute them? How often do they get shipments?

LRail wrote:How come none of the LI grocery stores can be convinced to try rail again? Especially with the rising gas costs of late? Would it be cost prohibitive to reactivate their sidings? I'm thinking of Waldbaums, Sysco, White Rose. I know King Kullen isn't in Hickville anymore. Does anyone know where they are?

LRail wrote:How come none of the LI grocery stores can be convinced to try rail again? Especially with the rising gas costs of late? Would it be cost prohibitive to reactivate their sidings? I'm thinking of Waldbaums, Sysco, White Rose. I know King Kullen isn't in Hickville anymore. Does anyone know where they are?

Speaking from a number of years (6) in the grocery store business, it runs almost as a factory with just-in-time delivery. Items are ordered based on need, specials, and previous experience (pre-Thanksgiving days for example). These aisle requirements are complied into and order (read: truck deliveries) within the next 24-72 hours.

The trucks come from a central hub (warehouse) that makes the deliveries. These hubs are centralized for cost efficiency, etc.

Here are two examples: In the late 1960's Food Fair had their main hub in Linden, NJ to serve the Tri-State area. Rail transport from Linden, NJ to the Islip, NY store (for example) would have been impossible.

Same today here in Polk County, Central Florida for a major chain Publixs. There are NO rail connections to the hundreds of stores they have.

To go back to the Waldbaum's experience, rail cannot deliver just in time 1-2 car loads as trucks can.

Steve

CSX stays pretty busy with the bronx terminal market - i wonder if a lot of foodstuff for LI comes through there?

nyandw wrote:Items are ordered based on need, specials, and previous experience (pre-Thanksgiving days for example). These aisle requirements are complied into and order (read: truck deliveries) within the next 24-72 hours.
The trucks come from a central hub (warehouse) that makes the deliveries. These hubs are centralized for cost efficiency, etc.

I'm not sure that's the question that LRail asked, in terms of rail service to individual retail supermarkets.
I believe he was instead asking about central grocery warehouses, such as the former King Kullen off John Street in Hicksville (closed late 1990s), or the Waldbuam's in C. Islip, which could take railcars (e.g. the Elizabeth NJ Wakefern distributorship I 'Live-Local-linked' seems to have about 16+ loading spots, not counting the former docks along Dowd Ave, nor the spurs into the center of the complex) - these are the places that should be getting freight car loads, and from those stocks loading up the local delivery trucks with the required day's deliveries for the retail stores. Did any retail-level supermarkets ever (well, since the 1940s) have direct rail service?
The question is why aren't the grocery warehouses using railfreight (well, King Kullen is gone, Waldbaum's is apparently not configured for it anymore, and the Wakefern warehouse complex...OK, not LI, but still what the heck is their problem?)

Sir Ray wrote:The question is why aren't the grocery warehouses using railfreight (well, King Kullen is gone, Waldbaum's is apparently not configured for it anymore, and the Wakefern warehouse complex...OK, not LI, but still what the heck is their problem?)

To me, the general answer to lack of railfreight into NYC and LI revolves around the catch 22 of the Cross Harbor Tunnel: Right now, rail takes 2 to 3x as long to reach NYC and LI since it has to travel to the Albany area then back or use unreliable (due to weather) car floats, with both cases requiring much waiting, so trucking is quicker and thus no demand demand to justify building the tunnel. Yet rail could move 2 to 3x the loads of trucks at what should be a lower cost, but with the current routes taking so much longer than trucking the savings are probably negated, so why use rails.

Railfreight into NYC/LI will never have a chance until a tunnel allowing freight movement connects NJ to NYC/LI.

Not this silly tunnel stuff again Hrrfcarl, I am not trying to mock you, or talk down to you, just shedding some light on things. The majority of the stuff that comes into NYA, does it all go up and down to Albany as you say, adding onto the transit time? The truth of the matter is no, it does not. The majority of that stuff from CSX, is coming west from Buffalo and points beyond. Obviously the CP stuff fits into the same category. So this rail tunnel, will benefit the NS cars, and a tiny bit of CSX traffic.

Please do not use the "if you build it, they will come" theory as well. It is simply not true.

As for Waldbaums in CI, what Jay said is true about what they did to the warehouse, but also, Waldbaums sold that property, and now ships their stuff from locations in CT, NJ and PA.

Yes, SirRay was correct. I was referring to the large warehouse centers that once received rail shipments. Does Goya Foods still get rail service? -Lee

Jayjay1213 wrote:Not this silly tunnel stuff again Hrrfcarl, I am not trying to mock you, or talk down to you, just shedding some light on things. The majority of the stuff that comes into NYA, does it all go up and down to Albany as you say, adding onto the transit time? The truth of the matter is no, it does not. The majority of that stuff from CSX, is coming west from Buffalo and points beyond. Obviously the CP stuff fits into the same category. So this rail tunnel, will benefit the NS cars, and a tiny bit of CSX traffic.

Please do not use the "if you build it, they will come" theory as well. It is simply not true.

I did not say ANY stuff coming into NY&A takes the Albany route, but you just proved the catch 22. Why build the tunnel if there is no stuff making that Albany route? But why would anyone want to use that Albany route as it is more costly/time consuming? With all the trucks on I95 going into NYC/LI, there are no shippments that could use railfreight instead if a tunnel was there? Even if the proposed terminals in Brooklyn/Queens & LI are not built, none of the stuff trucked to the current terminal in the Bronx or the distrubtion centers mentioned in this thread could take advantage railfreight using this tunnel and hells gate bridge?

As stated in past posts, I know the tunnel being built is a pipe dream at best, but rail freight will never reach its full potential to NYC/LI without some railfreight link connection from NJ.

There is not enough demand/rail freight on Long Island to justify the expense of building the tunnel. The railroads and their corporate partners decided long ago to transload the goods out of Jersey to satisfy a larger market. Whatever is left for Long Island can get trucked.

There is no reason to spend billions of dollars on a project unless you plan on moving trillions of dollars of product through it. That isn't the case.

Jay

Jay, While your comments have merit, it would seem that a new tunnel for joint use would serve to get a lot of trucks off the bridges over the Hudson River. An alternate would be to use the barges & deal with the height restrictions once the freight arrives in Brooklyn or transload it there.
I think we are all aware of the several plans to create trans loading facilities on LI.