Grand Central Madison TIMETABLES AND RIDERSHIP THREAD

[CTG]

That West Hempstead ten-car train probably is used on other runs before or after that one that require ten cars. Assuming that's the case, they could only have six cars open, maybe the front four cars closed to public so effectively it would be a six-car train.

That's a common practice on Metro-North where eight car trains are commonly run at mid-day with only the middle four cars open because of the light passenger load.

I can't imagine that is the case here. As a 5:36pm departure from a western terminal, that is the #1 run for that consist in the afternoon. They could not possibly have needed 10 cars for a 6:45pm return trip from West Hempstead. And with trains leaving every 5 minutes or so from GCT they had plenty of choices for which to use that particular consist on a run within 10-15 minutes either way that was only 8 cars.

As I've said, I get that there will be lots of things that need to be played around with and there will be some growing pains. This one is just an unforced error by the LIRR

[gamer4616]

Some consists are being built up in response to ridership trends.

3 new AM rush hour trains will operate weekdays (starting 3/6) as a shuttle between Jamaica and Brooklyn.

7:00am
7:29am
8:09am

all 3 being 20 minute locals

[Head-end View]

Well!...........The Newsday article today was very telling. The LIRR admits they miscalculated passenger loads in general. And in particular they estimated 40% would go to Grand Central and 60% to Penn. And what actually happened this week was a 30/70 split. I would guess that the percentage going to Grand Central will increase somewhat in the coming months.

Another point that was mentioned was excessive crowding on the Jamaica platforms being the result of eliminating the timed cross platform connections that existed for so many years. I've been wondering why they did that since the new timetables first came to our attention months ago. Wonder if they'll change it back to the old way later this year.......

[workextra]

If the customers want the old style schedule back. They must continue to lay on the complaints loudly and strongly.
Contacting their elected officials in addition to the MTA brass.
The initial idea was to improve service but clearly this models isn’t working out as it was thought to have.

It was tried for X amount of time and then the customer spoken and the results will be what they will be.

Even if we had the old service with some trains diverted from Atlantic and Penn for GCT, customers will still complain.
However the will have the opportunity to connect in Jamaica in a traditional manor between the 3 terminals the same way it was done with a LIC diesel and a ATL and Penn train on tracks 1,2&3
There is a lot that can be done to expedite the traditional schedule model.

Politics or not. any trains making Kew Gardens & Forest Hills should always make Woodside. That local connection via LIRR is wanted by the customers and does not materialize.

Has anyone here been directly affected in a positive or negative way?

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone - After a rough first five weekdays the LIRR is admitting that the anticipated split between
Grand Central and Penn Station is not working out as the original full service plan was thought...
70-30 looks to be about what the new divide is looking to be in this initial phase of service...

With this widespread schedule change there turned out to be an even larger rider backlash over
many crowded trains - and the platforms at Jamaica - along with less Penn Station service.

No matter what the LIRR did in this timetable implementation there was bound to be some problems...
There are ways to improve service such as re-considering at least some timed Jamaica transfers...

A thought could have been introducing Grand Central service more gradually increasing the percentage
of trains being shifted between PS and GC over the course of 2023 with passenger demand growth...

Let's see how many schedule revisions are made until the traditional Summer timetables become
effective May 22, 2023...MACTRAXX

[MACTRAXX]

I can't imagine that is the case here. As a 5:36pm departure from a western terminal, that is the #1 run for that consist in the afternoon. They could not possibly have needed 10 cars for a 6:45pm return trip from West Hempstead. And with trains leaving every 5 minutes or so from GCT they had plenty of choices for which to use that particular consist on a run within 10-15 minutes either way that was only 8 cars.

CTG - Not necessarily...Train #1762 may turn from a terminating passenger-carrying train at GC. Is the equipment clean or have discarded items left behind? At busy LIRR terminals roving car cleaners sometimes make their way through cars with their knapsack or large bag when station dwell times allow...

There are turnarounds tight enough at Penn Station (best example) that passengers barely have enough time to exit before those waiting to board for the next scheduled run - let alone any cleaning time...

Sometimes it is easy to tell from what direction at Penn Station if a train is entering service from WSY or a terminating westbound - since the yard serving GC is in Queens arriving direction will be the same...
MACTRAXX

[CTG]

In this particular case, the train was clean, but I still don't see that it makes a difference.

1762 may have been a turn from an incoming train. But it doesn't have to be. At 5:30 in the evening, there are trains leaving GCT every 3 minutes. Some are turns from incoming trains, others are put-ins. At that time, the LIRR has a choice of where to send an 8-car train and where to send a 10-car train. And they somehow chose to send a 10-car train to West Hempstead. Sorry, that's just a mistake.

[4behind2]

Notice how the politicians are emerging from their hidey holes shocked-shocked! that the riders are stirring up trouble on social and public media regarding this schedule debacle that most of them had no trouble with the draft release in June 2022 and bought the "trust us, everything will be fine" narrative by Janno, Catherine R, and others at the MTA. So did all the editors at Newsday, NY Post, NY Times and the local Long Island papers. And the Commuters Council was hunkey dory with it too.

Those Victor Koenig lunches really paid dividends!

[Jeff Smith]

https://nypost.com/2023/03/03/storm-war ... mute-mare/

The MTA was warned a decade ago that the Long Island Rail Road’s Jamaica hub would be overwhelmed and face frequent commute meltdowns — like the ones commuters have been forced to endure all week, The Post has learned.

The dire prediction came in an analysis of the Jamaica, Queens station’s capacity, completed in 2012, that simulated service changes nearly identical to the one launched by the MTA this week to its new $11 billion terminal on the East Side of Manhattan and found it would overwhelm operations at the station.

“Evaluation of the new operation on the existing conditions indicates an inability of the current infrastructure to accommodate the higher volume of service during the morning peak period and evening westbound direction due to cascading delays,” the analysis determined.

…

[workextra]

Though the customers preferred the older service model and it absolutely will be work with GCM trains.
It would
Require some NYP and ATL bound trains to be diverted into GCM.
This is will likely justify some Brooklyn scoots. Additionally. Jamaica Penn/GCM local scoots to Jamaica could be thrown in to allow trains from greater Long Island to run express between Jamaica and either of the NYC terminals.

Regardless though. When Amtrak take one of the East river tunnels out of
Service for a long term rebuilding. The LIRR would have to divert more NYP Traffic to GCM. I’m not sure how regular customers would accept that. But I think that’s an easier pill to swallow than the major changes currently affecting the commutes.
Consider there are 4 of these tunnels that are jointly used by LIRR and Amtrak.
The majority of the trains using them are LIRR trains, therefor these trains will be affected substantially for a minimum of 4 years but probably the better part of a decade depending on the extent the old tunnels are being rebuilt and how long the project takes.
If it’s 2 years per tube, that’s at least 8 years, not including any delay.
If the project is expected to be 1 years per tube it should still be schedule for a 2 year per tube outage to provide for a significant delay padding to account for unforeseen impacts or delays that will
Likely occur.

This means the fewer trains to NYP will have to all run with 10-14 cars to accommodate the heavier loading they would be taking to Jamaica.
You’re NOT diverting 80% plus to GCM
People will gravitate to GCM but they won’t go in droves even if we loos one tunnel at a time.

[west point]

workextra: Glad you see the problem. All 4 east river tunnels will have to be out of service one at a time. I believe the 1st - tunneled # 1 is in the worse condition. Amtrak needs to start the work now not at the end of 2023 !!! Can you imagine the horror while one tunnel is being refurbished another fails for some reason?? The longer tunnel # 1 start the more likely that could happen.

[west point]

If the LIRR loads to NYP remain as high as this past week there are long term consequences. The MNRR HellGate service will not be able to start until all 4 East River tunnels 1 -4 are completely refurbished. Now that will also require for the proposed East River tunnels # 5 & 6 will have to be seriously considered immediately. I certainly do not want that to happen.

[west point]

Thought' If East River tunnels start too soon the the expense of Penn south having to be built too soon. Just too much money needed all at one time.

[4behind2]

From today's NY Post:

“I think is going to be a huge improvement for our customers,” said interim LIRR president Cathy Rinaldi,

Much like airline industry, Cathy is trying to convince and spin to the public these "improvements" that were self created by gutting thru schedules to Brooklyn and standardized "local" and "no connection" service to Penn Sta. Methinks Service Planning didn't act independently on these schedules, but were "advised" by Albany to gin up the GCT service. They need to get those Metro North trains to Penn Sta. somehow!

Lots of Federal Funds went into the ESA project. Curious how one of the bigger proponents of the project, former Congressman Pete King is meekly quiet on the subject after procuring over $200 million for the project (and maybe more).

[Jeff Smith]

https://www.newsday.com/amp/long-island ... s-fd4idgjr

The adjustments made by the Long Island Rail Road to its schedule following last week’s chaotic launch of full service to Grand Central Madison did little to ease the crowding and chaos of the rush hours, some LIRR commuters said Monday.

But the railroad’s interim president Catherine Rinaldi said the adjustments, which include additional cars on the busiest trains and more frequent shuttles on the Brooklyn line, made for “much improved” conditions for riders Monday, and that things will continue to get better.
...