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  • GP38 info request

  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #169126  by SooLineRob
 
Hello EMD fans...

Does anybody happen to know when the first GP38 was sold / went into service? Not really looking for specific RR or road #, but what month / year did the GP38 first make it's first appearance other than demonstrational runs.

Also, what engine is in the GP38's? 12 cylinder 567 or something else?

Wondering how a GP38 would compare to ALCO's C420, would you consider them as being from the same era or competitors? I believe the C420 came out in '63, and the GP38 was later, but were they available at the same time? How did their power plants compare? What Air Brake schedule were available in each? Could roads have purchased the 38 and M.U.'ed them to older, manual transission, #6 Automatic Air Brake equipped locos?

Thanks for the info...

 #169238  by SRS125
 
Locomotives to compete with the EMD GP38 from ALCO and GE.

Model hp cyls engion production total for each country
EMD GP 38 2000 16 645 1/66-12/71 u.s. 712, Can 21, Mex 6

ALCO C-420 2000 12 251C 6/63-8/68 u.s. 129, Can 0, Mex 2
GE U28B 2800 16 FDL-16 1/66-12/66 u.s. 148, Can 0, Mex 0

 #169325  by SooLineRob
 
Thanks SRS...

Never knew the 38 had a 16x645 engine, kinda makes me feel foolish thinking they had a 12x567...

Anybody know about the M.U. capabilities? Air Brake / electrical connections? Can't say I ever saw a photo of a GP38 leading an RS3...
 #169611  by SOU2645
 
Was DT&I 200 built in 1-66. It was the first of 5 ordered by MEC but cancelled and diverted to DT&I instead. They had dynamic brakes which was non standard for this railroad. 200 and sisters lost their dynamic brakes and received paper air filters by the early 1980's. The unit became GTW 6200 in 1984 - it had been repainted blue and red as a DT&I unit as well. During the 1990's GTW upgraded 6200 and several others with microprocessors. By 1999 CN renumbered a few remaining GTW GP38U's/GP38AC's in the 4900 series to avoid number conflicts with their various newly overtaken rail lines. GTW 6200 is now CN 4994. I shot it in 2000 still in GTW blue/red with large IC style numbers on the cab.
Larry

P.S. GP38 types have operated with older first generation diesels of all types - including RS3's (on Southern Railway for example).

 #169950  by SooLineRob
 
Thanks for the reply, especially about operating with 1st generation stuff. The location of the M.U. air hoses was the part that made me wondered; e.i. the GP's pilot mounted hoses and the RS3's (or whatever) walkway mounted hoses. I recall being told that "back in the day" the roundhouse / diesel shop had a supply of "r e a l l y l o n g" adapter hoses that would make the connections from the pilots up to the walkways so units could be mixed / matched. I suppose the electrical connections weren't an issue either; putting a GP38 with automatic transission in front of a "manual transistion" RS type unit or vice-versa...I know the Erie-DL&W had M.U. issues at first; throttles/sanders/wheel slip/etc...electrical vs pnuematic.

 #170107  by EDM5970
 
Rob, there are no easy answers to the air and electric questions you have asked. As part of a restoration project that I'm working on, I have acquired quite a few representative electrical schematics (and more recently air brake drawings) and have studied them in great detail.

I'll try and keep this brief, and bear in mind that what I am speaking in general terms here; ABC RR's RS-3s may not have left Schenectady with the same equipment that XYZ-s RS-2s had. Railroads ordered different options in MU, air brake schedules and many other things.

Also, another good primer was published in Trains many years ago, called Lash 'em Up. I've found a few minor mistakes, I've never seen a FO/RE setup switch, for example.

Speaking as an electrician, the electric side is easier to start with. First, the BLWs GENERALLY (and remember that word-) had air throttles, as did some Limas and maybe some of the FMs. I'm not that up the air throttle units, so this will deal with Alcos, GEs and EMDs.

The MU connectors came in (at least) four sizes that I have seen; 12 pin on a 44 tonner, 19 pin on an Alco switcher or RS-1, 21 pin on some earlier road units, and the (AAR) standard for today, 27 pin. These have as a minimum, the four (or three on a 539 Alco) throttle control circuits, battery negative, positive control, generator field, forward, reverse, sand (if electric), wheel slip, alarm and fuel pump/engine run. (I know thats 14, I'm not sure what the 44T doesn't use-) I also think EMD used a 16 pin on early passenger power.

Sometimes an adaptor cable could be made to mate a 21 pin unit to a 27 pin unit, but 19 pin to anything else requires some serious electrical work in the 19 pin unit. I am familiar with a pair of Radio Control Cars that were used for mid-train helpers, they had a 21 pin connector up high, with high mounted connections for 6 air, and a low mounted 27 pin, with hoses for 24 or 26 air. These cars had to control both RS-3s and SD-40s, therefore they had two systems basically in parallel.

Mentioning the RCCs leads me into the air side; typically a switcher has 6 or 14 air, with three hoses: train line, main reservoir, and cylinder equalizing (or apply and release). On switchers, the two extra hoses, (MR and A/R) are under the coupler. On a road switcher with number 6, like many RS-2s and RS-3s, the hoses and MU connections were mounted up high, centered on the end handrail or on either side of the drop step.

As time went on, the 24 and 26 air brake schedules came out, and the MU shifted to 27 pin. (But not at the same time-) The three hoses for 24 or 26 (in addition to the train line) are MR, actuating (or bailoff, which releases the locomotive's brakes) and apply and release.

During the transition period, so to speak, between high and low mounted air and MU, some units were built that had both systems. Two examples come to mind. The L&HR C-420s had two hoses up high, to MU with their earlier RS-3s. Two hoses tells me that the RS-3s were 6 equipped; I'm not sure how many pins in the RS-3 MU, I've never seen a drawing. The Centuries also had MR, Act and A&R down low.

The GB&W had newer units (RS-11, RS-27s and Centuries) with both high 6 air and low 24 or 26 air, to run with their RS-2s and RS-3s, but the were all 21 pin until the Hornell units came in the early 1980s. At that time, the RS-2s were gone, the RS-3s had been rebuilt into RS-20s, so the higher connections came out and the units got drop steps.

As far as transition goes, many newer units were built with automatic transition, but had the lever in the control stand so the engineer could "shift" older trailing units manually; another two wires. Also, the current standard for sand is for electric sanding, but air sanding was in use for many years. One hose for forward, one for reverse.

Hope I've answered more questions than I've raised. I've rewired a few units, and brought them up to current MU standards. And remember that the above is in general terms, typical practise. There are always some exceptions, special orders or upgrades that railroads did to their own equipment. (I know of an Alco switcher with EMD controls and 27 pin MU, for example-)

 #170164  by SooLineRob
 
EMD 5970...

Thank you very much for your very informative, and easily read, explaination. The "electrical side" of M.U. capabilities always intrigued me as to how roads dealt with the period of multiple builder lash ups. The M.U. recepticals/pins/circuits had me curious. I figured that various "factory options" were available during this time period, as well as some "home grown" modifications. And as an electrician, I'm sure you've had fits dealing with the issues...thanks again for the time you've taken explaining the issues to us laymen!
 #170211  by emd_SD_60
 
SOU2645 wrote:Was DT&I 200 built in 1-66. It was the first of 5 ordered by MEC but cancelled and diverted to DT&I instead. They had dynamic brakes which was non standard for this railroad. 200 and sisters lost their dynamic brakes and received paper air filters by the early 1980's. The unit became GTW 6200 in 1984 - it had been repainted blue and red as a DT&I unit as well. During the 1990's GTW upgraded 6200 and several others with microprocessors. By 1999 CN renumbered a few remaining GTW GP38U's/GP38AC's in the 4900 series to avoid number conflicts with their various newly overtaken rail lines. GTW 6200 is now CN 4994. I shot it in 2000 still in GTW blue/red with large IC style numbers on the cab.
Larry

P.S. GP38 types have operated with older first generation diesels of all types - including RS3's (on Southern Railway for example).
Funny you mention the 4994, I went to check my train log and indeed got the 4994 on video back in June. Yes, it still has its italic IC-style numbers on the cab.
Thanks SRS...

Never knew the 38 had a 16x645 engine, kinda makes me feel foolish thinking they had a 12x567...
No, you got the GP38 confused with the locomotive it replaced, the GP35! :wink:

 #170223  by txbritt
 
(I know of an Alco switcher with EMD controls and 27 pin MU, for example-)
and we both know what a pain in the butt that thing was to troubleshoot!

she runs fine now, but If I only had a little track to really stretch her legs on.

TxBritt