Gensee Regional Market trackage in Henrietta/Rochester

regarding the Dimensonals on the shore, this served 2 purposes. The train wouldn't have to find a hole to get into to meet an opposing movement, or passing movement, and tie up one of the 2 mains while it was down there. there are 2 through truss bridges, one over state street and the other just west of the 490 underpass which are fairly close clearance. Not to mention that Rochester gets congested fairly often with it's own traffic without adding one of these to the mix. The "Shore" was a convenient place to send them and move about 20 miles without interfering with normal op.s.

Oh, definately the JCT outlawed often. Town Taxi company had a regular run with those guys, LOL. In addition to the Shore work, at times they had them doing Mobil Chemical at Macedon. (Other times, that work was handled by RBC-1) But there was only one crew. And the funny thing is, once in a while one of the guys had a wedding the next day or a vacation to start, and it always seemed to be a light day the Friday before and they'd be back in 5 hours, LOL.

Somewhere, I've got a list from late 1967, showing all the regular jobs out of Rochester, road AND yard, 25 of them if I recall. There was only one Genesee Junction crew (vs. 2 Belts, 3 West Bases, etc, etc) Quigley said that years ago there used to be 2 Fairport jobs, that was cut back to one by 1967. But nothing in my experience, nor anybody I've talked to, can recall a regularly advertised (as opposed to a relief crew) second Junction crew. Heck, ask Stanley, he started in about 1970 or so.

Fred was out of Lyons or Geneva in those days. Give Gino and Harry a swat aside the head - remind them Jack McGraw would not have left enough work for a second crew to do, lest it cut into the rubber stamp 12 hours HE was used to getting. And going farther back, the conductor was Norm Vanderlinder, and their caboose was NYC 17618, one of the wooden Big Four cabooses that filtered into the area. Ask them if they remember him.

(Just to show I can do more than argue about how many crews they had

I was not looking for this, but in sorting junk in the basement I came across a section of the Rochester D&C from Feb 23, 1982. It has an article on the retirement of Charlie Bender, an engineer who hired out in 1941. It's too long to quote the entire article, but some of it is worth posting here.

"Bender ate eggs and toast with his four co-workers at the Dip-A-Donut, a diner near the Genesee Valley Regional Market. (This was 10:30AM) After paying their checks the crew walked back to the Regional Market to board the train for their next stop at Georgia Pacific Corp.

Their day started at 6AM. It would end twelve hours later when engine 3274 made its last stop near Southtown Plaza.

The men had just finished delivering potatoes to Eber Brothers and Co Inc. In the afternoon they would switch cars carrying lumber at Georgia Pacific and then take 10 cars of paper to Case Hoyt.

For the past six years Bender has been an engineer on the West Shore...."

There were a couple photos with the article. Now the market, Georgia Pacific, and Case Hoyt are all gone from rail service and there is no need for a Genesee Junction crew. The LA&L still has a couple customers which were served by the CR crew, and the R&S operates a tiny portion of the old PRR. Other than that, it's pretty barren of any local traffic.

Nice article find, BRP. Good details. 3274 sounds like that Athearn Conrail GP40 I have in storage somewhere!

Generally, when was the West Shore Branch single tracked?

Did the PRR interchange with the NYC at Genesee Jct yard, or was the interchange separate? Did they cross the NYC at grade on a diamond like the LV and the Erie?

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:Did the PRR interchange with the NYC at Genesee Jct yard, or was the interchange separate? Did they cross the NYC at grade on a diamond like the LV and the Erie?

Diamond - yes.
Interchange - yes (wye track).

So B&O and NYC interchanged in the yard, PRR and NYC interchanged via the wye. I get it now. It's all starting to make sense.

-otto-

Here's how it may have looked in 1920...

http://docs.unh.edu/NY/rstr20sw.jpg

Doesn't show the present day B&O/NYC interchange - not sure when that yard was constructed. But a Plat map from 1924 shows it:

http://www.geocities.com/scottychaos/turntable.html

If you look closely, you'll see the turntable pit at the junction...

Jack,
I'll let them know. Gino and Harry may be takin the retirement bid this winter. Stan's still holding on, but they just took off the day yard job, so it's gunna get interesting. As a home terminal Rochester's future is getting very uncertain. I'm starting to work more often in Dewitt. Nice chatting with you.

Roadster - I'm not Jack, but there were 2 of them on that job - McGraw was conductor and Quigley was brakeman.

Abolished the day yard job at Rochester? Amazing! Used to have WB1 (west base) EB1 (East base) CS1 (Car shop) WH1 (hump) YT1 (took B&O and PRR interchange traffic) YO1 (Otis job) KS1 (Kent Street job) and probably more I've forgotten. And that's just on days, yard jobs.

Ask one of the old guys about the night the whole railroad came to a halt because of a young female named Stella. We'd better not go into details on the web but they can fill you in if you have not heard the story. It's true, and someday if I meet you face to face over an adult beverage we can go over some of those stories better left untold, LOL.

It's amazing - when I started the old timers would say "This place is nothing anymore, you should have seen it back when...." And now THOSE days seem like they were busy and interesting. It's a lesson to everybody that the things we take for granted today are the historic treasures a generation from now. I wish more people like Kachler had written books on their experiences.

roadster wrote:...they just took off the day yard job, so it's gunna get interesting. As a home terminal Rochester's future is getting very uncertain. I'm starting to work more often in Dewitt. Nice chatting with you.

If RG&E closes Russell Station in 2007, and with the continual downsizing of Kodak Park... the future of Rochester Yard is definitely in question.

If that is indeed the case, towards the end of the decade I can see the Charlotte Runner abandoned north of the Box Shop switch with the remaining trackage downgraded to an industrial track. I wouldn't rule out the R&S buying up the Charlotte Runner to serve what little business remains. The one or two customers left on the West Shore would be served by the LAL or R&S with trackage rights. Anything left along the mainline between Lyons and Batavia would be served by a travelling switcher or a local out of a much quieter Rochester Yard.

Speaking of customers left on the mainline - what is left?

Off the top of my head I'm thinking of:

Agway - Batavia
Weckesser Brick - Gates
Liqitane - Rochester
Otis Lumber - Rochester
Rochester Lumber - Rochester
Cantisano Foods - Fairport
Mobil - Macedon
Agway - Palmyra

So with that info in mind, here's the scenario:

Double track the West Shore between Fairport and Chili.
Build an Amshack somewhere near MCC or Marketplace Mall
re-lay a couple tracks at Genesee Junction Yard.
All Kodak traffic could be handled by R&S via Genesee Junction
Rochester Lumber has a plant adjacent to ONCT - put in a siding
Keep a short stretch of track to serve Contisano in Fairport
Abandon and sell off the main from Fairport to Chili Jct

The two or three customers who would be totally lost would be more than made up for, by the savings in taxes and sale of real estate in downtown Rochester. The city would probably LOVE to get rid of the railroad bridge just above High Falls, and CSX would probably benefit from not traveling through the middle of the city - i.e. vandalism, lawsuits when kids hop rides, theft from stopped trains. CSX also gets rid of the close clearance near the Depot, not to mention the entire Charlotte branch. Depending on how persuasive the mass transit advocates are, the city might take over the Charlotte Branch as access for the teeming masses flocking to and from the Fast Ferry

About the only negative would be opposition from the NIMBYs in Pittsford - if CSX were able to bridge over or under Monroe Avenue and a couple other crossings, it would work. Too bad Scottsville Road has just been reconfigured, that would be a problem area when working at Genesee Junction.

I don't think the city would be too happy to see CSX leave. The railroad pays a handsome sum of money in the form of property taxes. If CSX had the choice of unloading the Mainline or the West Shore, the logical choice would be the West Shore. It would cost too much money to double track it and as you illustrated, you'd have the grade crossing issue on a now much busier section of track.

If CSX abandoned the West Shore in its entirety, they'd only lose Wright Wisner - which is only a handful of boxcars a week. The LAL would still be able to interchange CSX traffic via the R&S.

Sure, there's the argument that they'd lose a back-up route in case of a derailment in Rochester, but what about the rest of the mainline that doesn't have such redundancy. Detour trains can always go down the Southern Tier, Buffalo Line, Corning Secondary or NYSW.

I disagree - bear in mind that as new owners gradually build on what was once the railroad right-of-way, they will begin paying taxes. No doubt there would be a short-term downside but when they consider what could be done with the properties, plus the scenic improvements by having no railroad (and I'm obviously speaking of non-railfans, to us the scenery would be better WITH the tracks of course) it would be very desirable. No more trucks getting stuck under St Paul Street, Buffalo Road, or Lexington Ave. No more flooded highways under the bridges when it rains.

I'd have to think the cost of double tracking the shore would not be a determining factor. The grading and roadbed is there. They could recover the rail from the main line and re-lay it other places. When you consider what they would save it would be considerable.

Obviously from a fan's standpoint it would not be a good thing. But as a business decision I bet it would be worth at least doing a study on. And I would not be shocked if at some point Conrail or CSX has already thought of the same idea.

BR&P wrote:I disagree - bear in mind that as new owners gradually build on what was once the railroad right-of-way, they will begin paying taxes.

Efforts at creating new economic development in the city have been dismal at best. If they abandoned the mainline ROW, it would remain abandoned for many years. Take the Hojack for example - it took a good 15 years before the ROW was sold off. The abandoned portion of the Falls Road is still owned by CSX who are still paying taxes and maintaining the bridges along the way even though the last revenue train ran along that portion some 12 years ago. Besides, there very few uses of a 100' wide strip of land outside of utilities or rail-trail. On the Hojack, some of it has returned to a natural state, others were bought up by utilities and the other parcels are used as ATV or snowmobile trails. The Rochester Yard could certainly be redeveloped, but not until it's cleaned up (see below).

No more trucks getting stuck under St Paul Street, Buffalo Road, or Lexington Ave. No more flooded highways under the bridges when it rains.

In the grand scheme of things, those are minor inconveniences at the worst. The city will gladly put up with that as long as they get their millions in taxes every year.

I'd have to think the cost of double tracking the shore would not be a determining factor. The grading and roadbed is there. They could recover the rail from the main line and re-lay it other places. When you consider what they would save it would be considerable.

See above - they'll still be paying taxes, albeit not as much once they tear the tracks up and have their lawyers fight the city on reassessment of their properties. Also consider the very costly environmental cleanup at Rochester Yard that would need to take place after 100+ years of god-knows-what being spilled there over time. The cost of such a clean up is enough to justify keeping the mainline and yard in service for as long as possible.

Obviously from a fan's standpoint it would not be a good thing. But as a business decision I bet it would be worth at least doing a study on. And I would not be shocked if at some point Conrail or CSX has already thought of the same idea.

Oh no doubt any business will look at their assets and continually determine which ones are no longer economically viable. With the way things are going at Kodak and the plans to shut down Russell Station, CSX will be taking a good long hard look at it's operations in Rochester in the upcoming years.