Railroad Forums 

  • Former SEPTA driver raises debate over crashed trolley

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #65016  by Urban D Kaye
 
I was at that corner several weeks ago photographing the one-day return of the PCC-II cars to West Phily. The scars in the pavement from last year's derailment are clearly visible. What's more interesting (to me anyway) is the fact that there are several other sets of wheel scars in the pavement. From the pattern, another fan and myself tried to determine whether these all could have been produced by a single incident. It seemed not.

Looking west, the downhill grade leading into the turn is noticeable, and other factors (wet leaves on the tracks, for example) could easily contribute to a derailment.

So I can't help but wonder whether other trolleys have derailed at 42nd & Spruce. S'pose I'd hafta visit the library's microfilm room to find out.

-Urban

 #65020  by flynnt
 
I've seen the scratches you are talking about. I doubt they all came from a single accident itself, but could have come from jockeying the streetcar around after the derailment.

 #65021  by Wdobner
 
I was out there a few hours after it happened, while 9001 was leaning on the building. The at that time it was somewhat easy to see from the tracks that the trolley left the tracks almost 1/3rd the way around the corner, with the tracks running nearly tangent to the corner. It crushed the curb and an inlet where it struck the curb, and IIRC it plowed over a light fixture as well. To place the trolley back on the tracks they pulled it with one of the big tow trucks straight back out of the building, placing it in the middle of the intersection of 42nd and Pine. Then a smaller PPA or Philly Streets tow truck pulled the front around until it was lined up with the tracks on 42nd. It was then towed down until it fell into the tracks. At that time it was coupled onto a 36 trolley (possibly 9053 IIRC) and towed dead to what I presume would have been Woodland Depot. It's likely that the tracks left from freeing the trolley from the sidewalk is what caused some confusion amongst the people watching trolleys with you.

Immediately following the accident there was a SEPTA LRO crew out there with a track gauge checking the width of the flangeways on the girder track in the corner. The outer southbound track (from which 9001 departed) was never changed, but aparantly the inner track must have been found to be out of gauge, because SEPTA tore it up a few weeks later and completely rebuilt it. I have to say it's unlikely that wet leaves were a problem, as the trees were green at the time.

 #65072  by Urban D Kaye
 
wdobner -
Thanks for the info on the track being out of gauge. I just used wet leaves as an example that factors beside driver error can contribute to trolley accidents. But thanks for confirming that they were not a factor in this case.
-Urban

 #65098  by jfrey40535
 
I've noticed that most of the trolley drivers from Elmwood do drive too fast and too carelessly. They use their rail brake way too often to stop. On the other hand, I've also ridden with several operators who drive too cautiously, like crawling down Chester Ave at 10mph with an open road.

How many trolley accidents have there been in the past year? Seems like every few months there is some kind of collission in the tunnel. Maybe instead of paying millions for a glorified radio-controlled tunnel, invest a little more in supervisors and operator training.

 #65115  by SEPTALRV9072
 
jfrey40535 wrote:I've noticed that most of the trolley drivers from Elmwood do drive too fast and too carelessly. They use their rail brake way too often to stop. On the other hand, I've also ridden with several operators who drive too cautiously, like crawling down Chester Ave at 10mph with an open road.
No what's worse is out here at Red Arrow and going going down the Media Line like a bat out of hell in Smedley Park heading in to the double track portion and having to put the car in emergency to prevent derailment.

 #65175  by Wdobner
 
Urban D Kaye wrote:wdobner -
Thanks for the info on the track being out of gauge. I just used wet leaves as an example that factors beside driver error can contribute to trolley accidents. But thanks for confirming that they were not a factor in this case.
-Urban
I think you misunderstood me. I said that the track which 9001 derailed off of was not changed and AFAIK has never been changed since the accident. Thus I am assuming SEPTA's crews found it was properly in gauge following the accident. It was the 40th-Market St bound (northbound, turning right off 42nd onto Spruce) track which was rebuilt following the accident. The crews checked both, and I guess they found one was properly in-gauge, that the other one was out of gauge and replaced the offending track.

The low coefficient of friction of a steel wheel on a steel rail is an asset to rail transit when you take it on a purely economic basis, there's less rolling resistance when you get going and SEPTA's PECO bill likely would reflect that. But when it comes time to start or stop, that asset becomes either an annoyance or a dangerous foe. The track brakes are the great equalizer for SEPTA's Subway Surface fleet when measured against the bus fleet, without them they'd have to maintain slower speeds and on-time ratings would likely suffer even more. It's also apparantly a matter of some debate as to how much damage a track brake actually does to the track. I've talked to several SEPTA LRO employees, and gotten nearly every concievable answer, from an operator who was convinced every track brake application shaves a 16th of an inch off the top of the railhead to a trackworker who insisted the wheels themselves do more damage than the track brakes.

Thus I disagree with the statement that SEPTA's LRO T/Os use the track brake too often. On level or uphill track they hardly use it at all, and I can see their use of it on downslopes (the only real place I've ever encountered "excessive" track brake usage). If I was trying to stop a 40-50 ton LRV on a downhill slope with all it's weight conspiring to keep it moving, I'd want to use a braking mechanism that wasn't tied to the weight of the LRV too.

I am a bit confused by Mrs Munford's assertion that, ""The wheels grind the rails down too far." It's obvious that SEPTA measured all rails in the vicinity of the accident scene (for one, I stood and watched them do it that morning), that they found some were indeed out of alignment and replaced those. So if the tracks were worn down enough for a trolley to derail, then how come SEPTA didn't replace them when they did the northbound track? They may be SEPTA, but even they wouldn't tolerate a repeat performance a week, month, year or even years down the road. And how come no other trolley has since derailed there? If it was a matter of SEPTA placing an employee with an injury on the job who possibly should not have been there, resulting in the employee being unable to control her LRV, then that's certainly a matter for SEPTA, Mrs Munford, and their collective lawyers to work out. However, it seems she's barking up the wrong tree by blaming the track for the accident.

 #65189  by Urban D Kaye
 
wdobner -

Sorry for the misunderstanding...it's really been a bad week...I'm not as focused as I should be.

Thx for the clarification.

* * *

I'll try not to muck things up as badly on this question...do the Kawasaki's have a higher center of gravity than the PCC-II cars? And if so, could this make them more likely to lean and lose contact with the rail on sharp curves?

-Urban
 #1599461  by MACTRAXX
 
Silverliner5 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:19 pm Does anyone have a picture of the damage LRV 9001 in the crash?
S5: Remember that this topic that you bumped up is now 18 years old...
The Daily Pennsylvanian link from the OP no longer works...
There are 3 photos of #9001 here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=122018
(1990, 2011, 2012 are when the three posted pictures of #9001 were taken)

As a RR.Net member for 17 years and four months I never revive long dormant topics unless I have
a good reason - such as significant subsequent information about a given subject...MACTRAXX