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  • Form 19's & other Train Orders

  • General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.
General discussion about railroad operations, related facilities, maps, and other resources.

Moderator: Robert Paniagua

 #173735  by freightguy
 
Sorry a few spelling orders OOS pending an investigation. Try to break down that train order. Remember that is only the operating authority you need the rest of your CRAP! If they build one the proposed switches out in Eastern Long Island, I could be the last freight conductor working solely in true manual block territory in the country. Ironically it has to do with East side Access to Grand Central Station which is now apparently a go!

 #173921  by SooLineRob
 
Thanks for the info Freightguy...

Is it (or was it) common practice for a Form 19 Train Order to list all the locos in the consist?

It take it that Form 19's and the associated Operating Rules don't have a provision/requirement for the entire consist to be "identified" by only one of the locos you have...such as NYAR 271 EAST or WEST...although you've got multiple units?

So would a "rock train"'s Form 19 state something like "...Engines 268,271,159,6610,5,4504,101 coupled run extra..."?

What would occur if you dropped/set out one or more of your locos listed on your "here to there and back" order...would you need a new order to return, listing the units you now have?

 #173926  by DutchRailnut
 
For Rules purposes a multi engine consist is considered one engine with lead unit identifying it.
 #173999  by freightguy
 
That is the East and West Engs of the consist. That is the only 2 we had that evening. The reason they listed them both is because I had a return order. That gives me operating authority in the opposite direction without having to get a new train order. That is why the engines were addressed like that in the heading. FYI that is the terminus of P&W Tilcon train from Conn. I went out with a set of lite engs and pulled the empty train from Prima Asphault which is located in Holtsville, L.I.N.Y.

 #174013  by SooLineRob
 
That's interesting...the "coupled" phrase. The GCOR roads simply address their Track Warrants/train orders to a single loco number that's somewhere in the consist; usually the lead unit on directional/through freights. Frequently, when a set of multiple units are used for several days on a local, one that travels back and forth, the "identifying/address" loco number remains the same for days. It could be ANY posistion in the consist, such as the 2nd unit in a 3 unit consist.

I read the Form 19 again and the order to run "...one train length east of first side track switch east of MP 51..." seems rather lenghty. Why not simply write "...run extra from KO2 to MP 53 (or MP 49) and return..." That instruction is a great example of what I was wondering about train orders, that just about anything can be written...

 #174019  by Jim Greenwood
 
SooLineRob wrote:That's interesting...the "coupled" phrase. The GCOR roads simply address their Track Warrants/train orders to a single loco number that's somewhere in the consist; usually the lead unit on directional/through freights. Frequently, when a set of multiple units are used for several days on a local, one that travels back and forth, the "identifying/address" loco number remains the same for days. It could be ANY posistion in the consist, such as the 2nd unit in a 3 unit consist.

I read the Form 19 again and the order to run "...one train length east of first side track switch east of MP 51..." seems rather lenghty. Why not simply write "...run extra from KO2 to MP 53 (or MP 49) and return..." That instruction is a great example of what I was wondering about train orders, that just about anything can be written...
Correct. The identifying locomotive can be anywhere in the consist, as long as the number lights are on.

 #174026  by SooLineRob
 
Hi Jim...

CN, pardon me, the Illinois Central is under USOR, correct? I take it from your post that only one engine number is used for a consist, just like the GCOR roads? Do all of CN's US operations (IC,WC,DWP,GTW,CCP) fall under the USOR rulebook? Do all roads use the same pre-printed form for writing/copying warrants/main track authorities?

 #174030  by Jim Greenwood
 
SooLineRob wrote:Hi Jim...

CN, pardon me, the Illinois Central is under USOR, correct? I take it from your post that only one engine number is used for a consist, just like the GCOR roads? Do all of CN's US operations (IC,WC,DWP,GTW,CCP) fall under the USOR rulebook? Do all roads use the same pre-printed form for writing/copying warrants/main track authorities?
Yes, the former IC operates with the USOR. As far as I know, all of those roads mentioned use the USOR. Only the one engine is identified per consist. I would hope that by now all roads are using the same forms for TWC and Track & Time.
Speaking of TWC, has anyone used radio blocking for TWC operations yet?

 #174038  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
That order they are using on the NYAR? is a local thing. I have never had a warrant, or a "19" addressed to more than one unit. In a perfect world, it would be the leader, but it is not necessary. Correct on the lighted number boards. Any place we ran round trip, or local, the engine with the warrant/19 was the lighted one, or the one displaying extra flags, as well. We had no orders, on CR, (except on the secondaries, where CT-401/Form-D's were in effect) and I would turn on every light in the consist. Number boards, platforms, cab lites, etc., for night time visibility. It was really cool, to run 15 light units, every weekend, to Enola or Selkirk (ENG-101 & ENS-101), and look back in a curve, and see the whole consist lit up. Some guys would cry on the radio, about the number boards being lit, or the white extra lights lit on the nose, but we looked too cool doing it that way! We even ran white flags, from time to time, whenever I could snag some from some run-through NS power. All 15 units online, and running 50 mph in the first or second notch. See some buffs, with cameras, go to throttle 8, and put on a full service. The flames, sparks and smoke were spectacular, and I could produce them at will, to oblige those at trackside. Enough guys from CP-5, or from Potter or Bound Brook will remember me, for those shows, from the 88/93 years. Until recently, you were allowed to change the locos on the warrant/19 order, but not the case any more. If you set out the "ordered" unit, you could transfer the flimsies to the next unit you were using. No more. Everything must be cancelled, or voided, and issued as new orders. Regards :wink:

 #174053  by SooLineRob
 
Good afternoon GA...

The "coupled" thing...I recall seeing a handful of other 19's addressed to "...Engs 45 & 44, coupled, run extra...". I can see the "simplicity" of identifying both units on a "work between/out and back" type train order, where lineside observers (M-O-W, agents, operators) would see #45 going west and then #44 heading east. It's a unique practice for sure. I'm not sure how such an order would be addressed to a 5 unit consist...would the address only list the units on each end of the consist?

I would imagine there's a resolution when "identified" units are set out enroute short of a train order's destination. Like a Track Warrant issued with a line 11 (restricted speed) to the "identified" train, and a "new identifier" getting lines 11 & 16 (listing bulletins) in the same limits of authority; thereby one crew having two warrants, each with a line 11 on themselves...once the "old" ID is off the main and the "new" ID is on, then the first warrant is now "dead" and clear...by the same crew that's now operating the "new" ID consist.

 #174056  by SooLineRob
 
Hey Jim, there's another wrinkle in the sheet...

Radio Blocking...today's method of directional trains following each other when there's no hack on the rear.

Back in the day of Form 19's / Train Orders, did the following train have anything on their orders advising them of a preceding train? Or did "flagging rules" from the caboose take care of rear of train protection?

 #174059  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
On the SP/UP we had some really big trains, with some really sweet consists, around the 97-98 time period. Most of the SP was dark territory, or signals with warrants, and we literally went from siding to siding, while running through freights, or STA or locals, and we used the same number all day, either direction we travelled, and with no regards to what was on the point. We used whatever number the movement desk assigned our bulletins to, as long as it was in the consist. occasionally, you would hear a guy wanting to re-address all of his bulletins, to whatever loco he found as the leader, whenever he found his power, or train. We always stuck with our "ordered unit", and as long as we didn't set it out, it was the warranted engine the entire tour. Sometimes we might have 8 or 10 units, on a train. Yeah, it sucked watching a train blow by you, in a meet, looking for a loco number at 49 MPH, or 60 in signalled territory, but such was the SP, then UP way of doing it. We always asked the trains we met, who they were, and the "leaader", although this might be on the point. I never have received a dual number order, though. This might be a way of some roads, or just certain dispatchers, and I really see nothing wrong with it. Do you light up both locos, in such a case? The orders would suggest yes, even though the rules suggest no. Just a thought......Getting ready to head out again, probably Califas, but possibly Miss. Oh well, such is the life of a Boomer....... :-D

 #174063  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
Radio Blocking :( The old way of train orders carried 2 ways of protecting a preceding train. First would be a scheduled, or TT train. His authority to operate on the main came from the TT, and his protection on both ends was covered under those specific rules. An extra train has several methods of protection. First one, is a signal system in conjunction with 19's. You are protected against following trains by at least 2 block signals (still in effect, today). If you are running dark, you couldn't put one train, on top of another. You ran, from station to station, with an operator reporting you clear of a block, or a qualified employee positively reporting an intact train, displaying markers, past a point of order. This is still a protection we enjoy (?) today, although things have gotten very lax, regarding what is required, to "believe" your train is still intact, and clear of a certain point. Even in the era of cabs and signals, the signal behind you didn't necessarily absolve you from protecting against a following train. You might have to anticipate another train running at restricted, or reduced speed, but you were still responsible for that hind end. Same for running half track speed, etc., but you addressed this, in your comment about flagging rules. There were always emergency provisions, for rescuing trains, track work, etc., but like today, everyone needed new paper, with the info to "remain at" for dead trains, and "assist and travel at restricted/reduced speed" for that assisting train, approaching from either direction. The basic jist of it all, although the terminology has changed, and the physical plant is different, both trackside and on the rails, the rules are still the same. In some cases, we have lost certain "protections" afforded us, in other areas, we have gained. We still have head-on and rear-end collisions, same as since the first trains shared a single track, so you can see, the system is far from perfect. (ATS would end collisions at a near 100% rate) I still don't like dark territory, and I have ZERO trust, or faith, in the guy on that other train. (if he is even only half as tired, and exhausted as me, it's too much). CTC, ABS and ATS are the only way to really, safely go. Regards, Brother Rob..... :-D
 #174065  by freightguy
 
That Form 19 is a true manual block "onion skin" from the days of the Pennsy. It is older than you and I combined. I copied the information right from it and put it on the computer. It sounds a bit draconian but that is the law of the land around here. If I got the order to the mile post my operating authority runs out there and any further I would be occupying the main without authority. There is no yard limit boards at that locale. I also had to get a A-card for both directions. No K-card because we didn't pass a block limit signal. The current president of the LIRR hired on as a clerk in 1958 and is their oldest operating employee. It is a safe system and it works for the most part. Like anything else with the railroad things are slow to change around here. Those 2 big wrecks may change stuff in the not too distant future. I just had to take a safety course on hazmats and dark territory. They didn't pay me the earnings of my job and I told my safety instructor he teach me on the engine the next time so I can earn 1159 instead of a flat 8.

 #174068  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
Good luck on that loco classroom :-D One of the lousy ways to beat you out of some pay, paying a basic day, at the lowest employees rate of pay. We always got a quit, and still do, in a rules class, or for training. The instructors (sometimes me) want to get the heck out of there, as badly as you do. If you have been around any length of time, you know of "creative" ways to recoup that lost money :wink: Shouldn't be to hard, to get it back....... I haven't been on a real "form 19" property in a few years now, and truthfully, I don't miss them. I will be glad, when no employee, on a class 1 road, has to copy a warrant, or take "orders" to move his train. Probably will never happen, but nice to imagine.........