• FDR Funeral Train on the Hudson Division

  • Discussion relating to the NYC and subsidiaries, up to 1968. Visit the NYCS Historical Society for more information.
Discussion relating to the NYC and subsidiaries, up to 1968. Visit the NYCS Historical Society for more information.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by Jeff Smith
 
IIRC, the connection from the Port Morris Branch on the eastern end (now the NEC) was northbound, as the yard was the destination of freight. It works at the western end, though. In either case (Port Morris or New Rochelle), you're still going to need to change ends.
  by shlustig
 
To clarify:

The NYC's Port Morris Branch went to Port Morris Yard. That yard was not directly connected to the NH's Oak Point Yard. There was an interchange track that ramped up to Oak Point, but it was not a main track and the curvature was extreme.

Also, the Port Morris Branch had a car length restriction of 60' due to curvature and double-track. Further congestion on the Branch occurred at the Westchester Ave. Yard location.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Thanks for the clarification. I just remembered when the Penn Access Study was being conducted and Port Morris was being discussed as an option to the Harlem, the direction of the track connections at either end were impossible. The clarification makes it clear (that's what clarifications do, right? LOL) that it would have been even more difficult.
  by TCurtin
 
Folks: Im pretty sure of the accuracy of the following routing
1. NH electrics powered the trains Penn Sta to New Rochelle.
2. Trains "changed ends" at New Rochelle, with probably a different engine (more efficient than a runaround)
3. NYC hudsons waited up on the Hudson (at approximate location of Metro North Yankees station).
4. Trains pulled into the clear of MO home signals and NH power came off.
5. Hudsons backed on opposite end

NO power change at Harmon. You wanted those trains to continue moving and keep engine change stops as brief as possible. Lots of security and safety concerns at service stops like that particularly a place like MO.
  by R Paul Carey
 
The first thing I would say is: pay attention to the "evidence", as offered by the first-hand recollection of bellstbarn.

The presumption that Hudsons were used East of Harmon is simply, I believe, a railfan fever dream.

The NYC facilities at Harmon were perfectly suited to execute engine exchanges with maximum efficiency. Further, considering wartime conditions at the time, needless switching and backing movements on Main tracks at or via MO would have presented significant and avoidable delay to other traffic.

As TCurtin's post (items #1 and #2) describes, these trains could have been operated via New Rochelle, as stated.

The more efficient movement, however, would have been via the Port Morris Branch with use of a T Motor directly to Harmon.

I certainly would welcome the introduction of EVIDENCE to the contrary.
  by jamoldover
 
Evidence #1: There's no direct connection (and never was) between the NH Harlem River Branch and the NYC Port Morris Branch. While it would be possible to get from one to the other, it would require multiple reverse moves through Oak Point Yard, on track not intended or suitable for passenger traffic. It also would have required reversing the train.

The logical (and most efficient) move would be, as Tom stated:
* Penn Station > New Rochelle with NH power
* New Rochelle > Mott Haven (pulled in reverse) with NH power
* Mott Haven > Hyde Park with NYC power

Assuming there would not have been any clearance issues for a Hudson to run east of Harmon, there wouldn't have been any backing moves needed. The locomotive would have run from Harmon down to Mott Haven, turned on the wye at Mott Haven, then backed onto the head end of the funeral train as it was sitting on the Harlem River bridge. If there were clearance issues that prevented a steam locomotive from getting to MO, then it's certainly possible an electric would have been used from MO to Harmon, but that would not have changed the routing on the New Haven via New Rochelle.
  by jamoldover
 
Doing a bit more digging on this and looking at the valuation maps for the Port Morris Branch, there seems to be a significant issue that would have prevented the funeral train from using the route - the track that connects the branch with the New Haven Oak Point Yard connects to the Port Morris Branch in the wrong direction for there to be enough room for the entire train to fit. There's only about 1000 feet between the switch to the connecting track and the end of the main track at the river's edge. An 18-car train (even without locomotives) would have gone about 600' past the end of track into the river.

Yes, the train could have been split and reassembled in addition to changing ends but that would seem to be unlikely.