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  • FBI and NJ State Police investigating NEC photography

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

 #20672  by Ken W2KB
 
Today's press also has reports that "the New Jersey Attorney General's office is investigating at least seven instances in the last week of suspected surveillance along [the NEC]" It goes on to say people were filming "in an apparantly systematic way" . . . triggering "a massive countersurveillance program" including "interviewing witnesses and conducting polygraph tests."

From Dow Jones International News

 #20673  by Ken W2KB
 
It will be interesting to see what will result from these incidents. The news article does state that Washington is very concerned that there will be a (according to ABC News) "spectacular attack inside the U.S. prior to the general election in November." I suppose the NEC in NJ is considered a prime target.

 #20727  by Camelback
 
Terrorists don't need to do "systematic surveillance" along the northeast corridor. The majority of the train movements are published in the form of schedules. This is what's scarey about what happened in Spain. Passenger railroads are extremely vulnerable.

The suspicious people were most likely railfans. People come from all over the world to railfan along the NEC. This includes railfans from India, Pakistan and the Middle East. Yes, people of all nationalities like trains. If the terrorists are planning a similar attack as what happened in Spain they do not need to do obvious surrvelliance like video taping along the corridor.

 #20733  by rvrrhs
 
Camelback wrote:Terrorists don't need to do "systematic surveillance" along the northeast corridor. The majority of the train movements are published in the form of schedules. This is what's scarey about what happened in Spain. Passenger railroads are extremely vulnerable.

The suspicious people were most likely railfans. People come from all over the world to railfan along the NEC. This includes railfans from India, Pakistan and the Middle East. Yes, people of all nationalities like trains. If the terrorists are planning a similar attack as what happened in Spain they do not need to do obvious surrvelliance like video taping along the corridor.
...and people of all nationalities--including white Christian Americans like Tim McVeigh & Eric Rudolph--will commit terroristic bombings on American soil.

Seems to me an explosives-laden Ford 15-foot Hi-Cube parked beneath a rail bridge (a la Oklahoma City), or a 30-foot Chris-Craft anchored beneath a drawbridge, would be just as likely (and effective, from a terrorist's point of view) as backpack bombs placed on the trains themselves.

 #20734  by Mudvalve
 
I'd be curious to know how they determine it to be suspicious.

[quote]"spectacular attack inside the U.S. prior to the general election in November."

Thanks to our friends in spain who "turned tail" so to speak ,its a given something is going to happen a few days prior to the election.

 #20738  by rvrrhs
 
One wonders, based on how the US reacted in the aftermath of 9/11, whether a spectacular attack would weaken or strengthen our support for the current administration's efforts? The Spanish people were generally already pushing (strongly) to withdraw from Iraq before 3/11, so I believe it is unfortunate the bombings were interpreted as having any influence on their withdrawal.

Do these suspected terrorists want to push the US toward voting for Kerry, or do they want us to reelect Bush? It is likely they would want Kerry to win, but it is also likely that a 3/11-esque attack would turn the election solidly toward Bush.

 #20746  by Mudvalve
 
My best guess is that if something does happen, the people will react just like after 9/11. I hope nothing does.

 #20753  by Justin B
 
Personally, I am of the opinion that a large-scale terrorist attack a la 9-11 with in the next few months would push public opinion the way of Mr. Kerry. It would demonstrate Mr. Bush's inability to protect the country, as he is touting national security as one of his core reelection platforms.

Whoops.... now we are really off topic.

Back to the original matter at hand, do any lawyerly railfans know if the police can take any legal/criminal action against persons photographing railroads & equipment?

 #20761  by Lackawanna484
 
The September 11 hijackers made several "dry run" trips prior to their attacks. There's little doubt they were gaming the system to test the porosity of scanners / checkers. Other things, like the number of passengers on a typical flight they were targeting, can be gained from available seat charts on Orbitz, Expedia. But, watching the routine, that has to be done up close.

I think it's reasonable authorities would pay attention to people "hanging around" key bridges, tunnels, pipelines, fiber optic backbone, bridges, or docking their boats directly under key bridges while fishing, etc.

How long will it take for someone to notice, who's watching, can I examine which beams are primary weight bearers, etc? It's equally up to railfans to observe and report, as required.


Paul

 #20767  by 7 Train
 
This is really scary. I really feel something big is coming.

I really believe the only way to stop terrorist attacks on the US is to stop US government funding to Israel.

 #20776  by nick11a
 
Then, if I mysteriously dissapear from this board, you'll know where I'll be. :D

 #20791  by Jtgshu
 
No, more like if I disappear from the board........ugh.....i don't wanna think about it

Maybe I should bid on to a Bay Head Shuttle job or out in Raritan.......

nah......but it is scary, very scary

 #20795  by Mudvalve
 
Before 9/11 when the hijackers were planning without the general public knowledge, life was peachy. Now that the govt informs us on threats life has taken a complete 180. As they say ignorance is bliss.

To get back on subject, if i see something or someone out of place along a ROW, i'm going to be sure to report it.

 #20799  by nick11a
 
Jtgshu wrote:No, more like if I disappear from the board........ugh.....i don't wanna think about it

Maybe I should bid on to a Bay Head Shuttle job or out in Raritan.......

nah......but it is scary, very scary
Don't worry Jt. If anyone has to worry, its the folks like me who "terrorize the rails" by photographing and surveiling trains.

 #20863  by JDFX
 
I been watching, seeing what the initial response was to this topic.

First, I want to say to blame all this terrorism on the fact that the United States funds Israeli Defense is purely ignorant.

Terrorists hate us because we are a free and open society. We don't force religion of any kind on people, nor do we treat our women as second class citizens.

When you can accept the simple fact that they want me dead because I am a Roman Catholic, and not a Muslim, then you'll realize that everything else irrelevant.

It is a religious war.

Now, back on topic.

Second,

if there is any good time to make the bridge between railfans and railroads/police, now is the best time to do it. Lets face facts, there will never be enough police to patrol all of the nations railroad miles, period.

For years and years, both law enforcement and railroad management have this disdain for the average joe railfan. Admittedly, when the rare railfan with the black and red, horizontally striped shirt with the mustard stain encroaches on railroad property, moves equipment, climbs on parked railcars, etc. it pisses everyone off.

But, the overwhelming majority of railfans know better, and I must say, we police ourselves rather well.

The wedge in the relationship between the two needs to be eliminated. Exactly how, I am not sure, but the start would be to get the railroad to acknowledge the fact that several hundred pairs of eyes are better than the dozen or so on the payroll.

CN/IC has started embracing the "railfan help" on a limited basis as a test, and so far, it has been rather successful, not only removing suspicious persons from their property, but also reporting to railroad officals about unauthorized riders, shifted loads, malfunctioning gates, etc.

How exactly this is done, I am not sure, but more and more stories from T&E folks from that railroad often mention assistance from "railfans" who have keen eyes for things which are out of the ordinary or not safe. Surely, this is helping to protect the company from costly expenses incurred from thieves, trespassers, grade crossing accidents, and derailments.

Again, there needs to be discussion on this. If it requires an 800 number, and a person to answer that phone, so that railfans can report to the company potential hazards, then fine, but I'd think that the costs to set that system up would be alot cheaper than waiting for the next disaster, and then trying to follow through with the clean up.

Third,

finally, for those who think I am cracked in the head, keep in mind, the other alternative, which was enacted during World War 2, is a total ban on taking photos of anything industrial, including railroads.

Don't think the government won't do it? It wouldn't take much for the president, be it Bush, or possibly Kerry, to enact an executive order in the name of Homeland Security to ban the photograhpy of all transportation subjects, including infrastructure, equipment, employees, etc.

Granted, I am a rather crappy rail photographer, and enjoy just sitting, watching the trains roll by, but many railfans drag cameras with them nowadays, some the new digital types.

I personally would hate to see a ban on railroad photography, cause honestly, unlike World War 2, where there was an end in sight, I don't see an end anywhere in the next decade on this war on terrorism.