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  • FBI and NJ State Police investigating NEC photography

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

 #24994  by Ken W2KB
 
I believe some states do have laws against wearing masks or otherwise obscuring one's facial features inside commercial establishments and other indoor premises. They were enacted to counter Ku Klux Klan terrorism tactics wherein the Klan members simply showed up hooded to convey the message that the Jews, Blacks and Catholics ought not to be there.

 #25216  by kevikens
 
I realize that this topic can get dicey but I must repond to the earlier post about violent Christians. This is the argument of moral equivalency. Both sides do it so it is not permissible for one party to criticize the actions of the other. This fallacy ignores an extremely important distinction. Those domestic terrorists engage in violent acts DESPITE the teachings of Christianity to the contrary while the Islamic terrorists are engaging in these destructive acts at the BEHEST and PROMPTING of their religion. Tim McVey never expected to be rewarded with his 72 virgins. Christianity and Judaism have never condoned, let alone encouraged suicide bombings and Islam does. That does make Islamic terrorists a threat of a higher order and their religion a legitimate subject of suspicion.

 #25231  by JLo
 
while the Islamic terrorists are engaging in these destructive acts at the BEHEST and PROMPTING of their religion
Says who? There is a very small sect of islamic teaching that advocates such stuff. If it wasn't a small sect, then we be at war with a third of the world right about now. Give up on the comparisons of religion and focus on the acts. You certainly can advocate retribution for those who advocate and actively work for the demise of all non-Islamic governments and peoples. But you can't base it on religion because it does not apply to all of Islam.

 #25315  by kevikens
 
Only a small proportion of Germans were Nazis and a small proportion of Russians Communists, yet the whole population of those countries governed by those ideologies was a very real danger to American interests. Islamic Fundamentalism, Wahabism, is deeply ingrained within the masses of Islamic countries at least in the Middle East, and when they come to power, and they will, those countries will have become our deadly enemy. As for Americans who practice Islam are they a danger to American society ? I would like to suggest that if they consider loyalty to their religion to be the paramount motive in their lives they may choose their religion over their nationality in a crunch. What needs to be adressed is whether Islam preaches and Moslems in this country believe this to be so.

 #25322  by GandyDancer
 
I would like to suggest that if they consider loyalty to their religion to be the paramount motive in their lives they may choose their religion over their nationality in a crunch. What needs to be adressed is whether Islam preaches and Moslems in this country believe this to be so.
The same question was asked after Pearl Harbor regarding Japanese-Americans, which led to a suspension of their civil rights by being forced to move away from the Pacific coast states or suffer internment in "detention" camps.

 #25328  by Idiot Railfan
 
At the same time law enforcement if flipping out about railfans on the NEC, Amtrak is encouraging photography of its trains for its calendar

http://www.amtrak.com/calendarcontest.html

 #25362  by rvrrhs
 
kevikens wrote:I realize that this topic can get dicey but I must repond to the earlier post about violent Christians. This is the argument of moral equivalency. Both sides do it so it is not permissible for one party to criticize the actions of the other....

Tim McVey never expected to be rewarded with his 72 virgins. Christianity and Judaism have never condoned, let alone encouraged suicide bombings and Islam does. That does make Islamic terrorists a threat of a higher order and their religion a legitimate subject of suspicion.
We're not saying it is not permissible for one party to criticize the actions of the other...just remember when you do so that there's no high ground on the issue.

As to the "condoned suicide bombings," the unfortunate thing about Islam in general is that there is no central authority--as there is in most Jewish and Christian denominations (the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, etc.) --to interpret the laws and doctrines of the given "church," so in Islam much is up to individual interpretation. While the Pope is issuing rulings on whether politicians can receive the Eucharist based on their views on political issues, there's no authority to tell the Islamic world that Osama is "officially" violating Islam with his interpretation of "Jihad." So, to say that any action by terrorists is "condoned" by Islam is a major misconception.

 #25550  by Ken W2KB
 
>>>Stay in public access areas, and away from railroad structures and moving equipment — in stations, on sidewalks, or in parking lots.<<<<

With the above license from Amtrak, and Amtrak owning/operating out of several NJ NEC stations, it would appear to obviate the NJT ban, at least to the extent the photographer limited subjects to Amtrak trains, or main subject Amtrak with NJT incidentally in the background. Very interesting conflict.

 #25621  by mgdemarco2
 
Quote:
"As one can see if one reads/watches unbiased news, instead of relying on the likes of FoxNews, the majority of Muslims, and the majority of Christians, and the majority of Jews, are all just "regular folks" who want to live their lives and be left alone by the rest of the world."

This is the most intelligent statement made on this entire board. How many of you making sweeping condemnations of Muslims actually know someone who is a Muslim? I read another line that said the main problem with Muslims is that they do not have a surpreme authority like the Pope. Well actually the majority of Christians in the United States are Protestant so they do not have a surpeme authority on earth either. Who is the supreme authority on earth for Jewish people?

Regarding a statement that said terrorists hate the US only because it is a free and democratic society: This theory holds no water as the majority of countries in the world today are democratic and their people enjoy just as much freedom as we do here the United States. The only undemocratic country in our entire hemisphere is Cuba.

Yes, there will always be extremists who want to terrorize people around the world. However, the real question is why do people go along with these crazy people. For example, we could just say that Hitler was a crazy lunatic who individually killed millions in the Holocaust. This of course is true. However, it does nothing to explain how one individual became so powerful and ordered so many atrocities. The reality is that the economic and political reality of post-Versailles Germany created a situation that was ripe for extremism. I use this as an example that shows when political and economic institutions are in ruin, a very dangerous situation arises where people embrace extremism, regardless of their religions and often contrary to the principles of their relgions.

The reality is that the US has actively worked against democracy and reform in the Arab world. Democracy would raise the cost of doing business as labor unions, environmental laws, and higher taxes to benefit the masses would cut into the profits that American companies could pull out of other countries. Why are labor unions still banned in Iraq? Anyone who is informed of our foreign policy towards that Arab world, historically and currently would logically conclude this. Supporting regimes who terrorize their people, such as Saudi Arabia, actually creates terrorism because people don't like living under dictators and they hate the governments who support their dictators.

If we lived under a dictator here in the United States and China supported our dictator, woudn't we all hate China? Well, there is our answer as to why so many in the Arab world hate the US. Historically supporting tryans like the Shah and Hussein only fueled the fire of terrorism against us. Unfortuantely, the policy of supporting tryants, who are economically friendly to us, continues under the current administration.

 #25638  by rvrrhs
 
mgdemarco2 wrote:I read another line that said the main problem with Muslims is that they do not have a surpreme authority like the Pope. Well actually the majority of Christians in the United States are Protestant so they do not have a surpeme authority on earth either. Who is the supreme authority on earth for Jewish people?
Well, actually, in most cases it is a recognized council or organization or committee that gets together and discusses such things, and interprets scripture, and votes on issues such as conversion. There is a congress of reform Jewish rabbis, for example (I forget their official name), and we're always reading in the newspaper about the gatherings of Lutherans and Southern Baptists where there are potential schisms because of some clergy's acceptance of gays, etc. In the Muslim world, as I understand it, any ayatollah or imam (or whatever), once trained, goes off to start or take over a congregation, and then they're pretty much independent of a central authority. There are some specific, localized authorities (like the guys in Iran who recently ruled that many reformist candidates couldn't run for reelection because they weren't religious enough), but many of these are constructs of their particular Islamic government. In Western countries, there are community-based organizations of Muslims, but these are more like the Knights of Columbus than the local diocese.

 #25651  by mgdemarco2
 
Ok, but do these Protestand and Jewish councils claim to be infallible when they make limited doctrinal decisions? I believe this is the difference between these councils and the Pope.

Mainstream Muslims do not believe that indivdiual mosque leaders have full reign in their decisions. Their decisions must conform to larger beliefs of their sect of Islam. This is the same as in Christianity and Judaism.

The larger point is that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have small perchentages of extremists who distort the religion. For example, the KKK and the Westboro Baptist Church distort Christianity, the JDL distorts the Jewish faith, and Al-Quaida distorts Islam.

 #25660  by hsr_fan
 
Muslims are definitely different from Christians in that Christ was a pacifist. He never raised an army or killed anyone or advocated the killing of anyone. Historically, Mohammed did raise an army. He did advocate killing "Infidels" who at first were the pagans of Arabia who used Mecca as their seat of worship. After killing or converting by sword all pagans, he turned against the Jewish communities living in Arabia because they would not acknowledge him as a prophet. He ran out all Jews from Arabia and all Christians, or at least all Christians who weren't slaves (many were) unless they converted. Successors of Mohammed turned their armies toward Persia and used the sword to turn that land from a Christian and mainly Zoroastrian country to a Muslim one. Then they spread out from there. Muslims believe that everyone born is a Muslim, but those who don't know the Koran are wayward and are living in ignorance. They believe that everyone in the world should be Muslim and they have laws that prevent the conversion of Muslims to other religions. I don't know enough about the religion to know how much is based on interpretation and how much on actual doctrine, but the history of the central figure of the religion was not exactly a non-violent one.

Islam was born of violence -- their doctrine, under Mohammed, was to force all to become Muslims. Muslim conquests were followed by forced conversions to Islam. Non-Muslims were always subject to enslavement, so a person could prevent his own enslavement by a hasty conversion. Non-Muslims were also subject to burdensome taxation, consequently many people were forced to convert to Islam to avoid financial ruin. The building of churches and temples was forbidden. It was jihad that shaped and expanded the religious map of Islam. Death was usually the alternative. Mohammed proposed a world that was totally Islamic. He wasn't seeking any inner truth, he wanted power, and he got it by promoting fanaticism. Many of his followers today are no different. They don't fight for and promote freedom, they fight for the uniformity of a single all-encompassing doctrine. Islam means "submission", the word Muslim means “one who submits”. To promote freedom and individuality would dilute the power the mullahs and clerics wield over the masses; worse still, freedom and individuality usually leads to education, which would erode their power even more. The ideal of Islam is total submissiveness. To ensure that the faithful will not identify with anything else, all exposure to the outside world is severely limited: the news is censored, the texts of other religions are not available, missionaries are discouraged or banned outright. All Muslim school children are taught the glories of past Muslim conquests. A psychological barrier is drawn around the Muslim collective by a relentless propaganda campaign that strives to impress upon every Muslim that there is nothing worthy of admiration or reverence outside of the Islamic community.

Their Koran is basically a textbook on how to deal with the infidels. It says “God has purchased of the faithful their lives and worldly goods and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause, slay, and be slain.” The Koran endorses terrorizing, beheading, maiming, ambushing, crucifying, killing and warring against unbelievers “You may strike terror into the enemies of God and the faithful and others besides,” “I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb,” “When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” And so on, and on, and on, with justifications for executions, mutilations, and torture. The Koran also justifies revenge and bloody vendettas with such admonitions as “Retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed,” “Let evil be rewarded with like evil,” “Those who avenge themselves when wronged incur no guilt.” Where in the Bible or Torah does such writing exist?

The Koran considers idolatry an unforgivable sin and it considers all Christians to be idolaters. The idea of Jesus’ divinity is called “a monstrous blasphemy” and a “monstrous falsehood at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust.” Christians and Jews are specifically targeted in the Koran as perverters of the true Scriptures. The Koran rarely mentions love or peace, but is riddled with references of hellfire and jihad. In fact, the Koran has a powerful bias against Christians and Jews as exemplified by this passage: “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever seeks their friendship shall become one of their number.” And on and on, ad nauseum. This hardly sounds like a "peaceful" religion.

 #25694  by mgdemarco2
 
Yes and the Bible, especially the Old Testament contains very violent passages too. How about the Book of Revelation with its final battle of good and evil? Christianity has been violently forced on people too. The Crusades and the "Americanizing" of the Native Americans are just two examples. Should we all go around hitting children because its in the Bible?

 #25696  by mgdemarco2
 
Do the following posts make the Bible violent? Or, do we just ignore them and criticize the Koran?

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)

Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them. Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine - but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. Such spirit needs to be reciprocated.

 #25703  by hsr_fan
 
Well, yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of organized religion in general, and I certainly won't try to defend the passages of the Old Testament. It does reflect the cultures of the people who contributed to it, and it reflects a lot of practices and beliefs that are just plain wrong, IMO.

But I've always believed that Jesus was a man of peace, and your quotations from the New Testament are a little more interesting, and frankly disturbing to me. I'm tempted to give the response that you must be taking it out of context, but I would have to look into those passages, and the possible interpretations of them, before I could say that with any authority.