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  • Fastest Scheduled Turn?

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #1396662  by trainbrain
 
What two revenue trains have the shortest turn at the terminal? Bergen Line 1173 returns to Hoboken as Main Line 1130, and that's a 6 minute turn at Suffern. Since both always use a multilevel set, the conductors don't have to flip seats, so that speeds things up. I believe that set is also used on 1161 and 1122, which has a half hour turn at Suffern and then another half hour turn at Hoboken before being used on 1173, just to compare it.
 #1396698  by EuroStar
 
In general 6 minutes is a very tight turn, but train 1173 almost always arrives early at Suffern as the ridership beyond Ridgewood is minimal due to the two expresses ahead of it (one of them stopping only at Rt17). Notice how in the schedule all times for that train are preceeded by "L" for possible leaving ahead of schedule. Employee schedules (hard to obtain) might tell you a lot about which train turns into which one using the same set. In off-peak you might be able to guess them from the public schedules, but during peak hours there are a number of deadheads from and to Hoboken.
 #1396722  by trainbrain
 
I've figured out a bunch of the rotations, and during the peak hours, what has a revenue run back to Hoboken and what deadheads back to Hoboken.

Looking at the schedule, it seems weird that 1173 even goes to Suffern. 61 is a much faster train if you're going to Route 17 or Suffern (8 minutes before 1173) and 1171 is 13 minutes before 1173 and provides express service to all the other stations between Ridgewood and Suffern. The set from 1171 deadheads back to Hoboken, but it could easily be used on 1130 if 1173 was cut to Waldwick.
 #1396783  by EuroStar
 
You forget that the trainsets are not the only thing to consider. I do not design the schedules, but I can assure you that crew rotations is another very important one. For example, maybe the crew on 1171 is at the end of its shift and cannot make another revenue run due to FRA or union rules. In fact I believe that in general the conductors and the engineers have different rotations i.e. the same engineer and conductors are not paired for the duration of their workdays.

Also you would not really save that much by cutting one of the trains short at Waldwick -- most likely the both crews still need to be paid regardless which yards their trains are sitting in. The fuels savings are also minor as sitting in Waldwick or Suffern means that the HEP power still needs to be provided to the sets.

And finally, 1173 tends to collect any leftover passengers who did not make it to the 1171 which is especially important during delays from Penn. A few schedules ago 1173 used to skip some of the stops beyond Ridgewood, but that is no benefit really and serves only to aggravate the few passengers which might sometime need that train to stop at their stop. Oldtimers might be able to tell if long ago 1173 used to be to a revenue train to Waldwick only plus a deadhead to Suffern. If that was the case then there seems to have been effectively zero cost provision of an extra train covering the stations beyond Waldwick, so why not provide it?
 #1396791  by trainbrain
 
That makes sense. On weekends, they hold the train at SEC if its connection from Penn is delayed, but that can't be done during rush hour for obvious reasons.

The said set, to my knowledge is used on 1161, 1122, 1173, 1130, 1281, and 1234. That's almost exactly 9 hours, and there is a 1 hour break between 1130 and 1281, about 5.5 hours in. One crew could do all those runs without going over their hours. I'm sure the same set is used earlier in the day, but with a different crew. 1171 might be the last revenue run for that crew.
 #1398033  by srock1028
 
trainbrain wrote:What two revenue trains have the shortest turn at the terminal? Bergen Line 1173 returns to Hoboken as Main Line 1130, and that's a 6 minute turn at Suffern. Since both always use a multilevel set, the conductors don't have to flip seats, so that speeds things up. I believe that set is also used on 1161 and 1122, which has a half hour turn at Suffern and then another half hour turn at Hoboken before being used on 1173, just to compare it.
You're a little off....
1169's EQ turns to 1130
1171's EQ is a finish
1173's EQ turns to X112

Crewing turns is a whole different animal, crews don't always stay with the equipment turns. The only correct thing you have is 1161 turning to 1122, which then turns to 1173 in Hoboken.

On paper the minimum time that is tried to keep revenue to revenue 20 minutes and this isn't done often. Revenue to non-revenue / non-revenue to revenue minimum is 15 minutes and this also isn't done often.
 #1398252  by srock1028
 
Finish means the set goes to the yard for the night and it starts back in service after midnight the next day. For example, 1171is a finish on Monday at 7:27 PM and it starts the next day (Tuesday) on train 1100 at 4:47 AM.
 #1398556  by trainbrain
 
On the really old schedule, 1167 and 1173 had the MLV sets which returned as 1126 (now 1128) and 1128 (now 1130). Everything else was single level. When they added a 3rd MLV set, they put it on 1169 in the evening rush, and it ran empty back to Hoboken.

At one point, they changed the schedule to have 1130 (formerly 1128) depart 6 minutes later, likely to accommodate the somewhat tight turn. As was pointed out, it looks as if they changed the equipment rotations to have 1169 return as 1130 and 1173 deadhead back to Hoboken. 1130 went back to departing at 8 instead of 8:06, and 1173 became fully local, to pick up the leftover passengers from 1171 and 61 between Ridgewood and Suffern.
 #1398899  by CentralValleyRail
 
srock1028 wrote:
trainbrain wrote:What two revenue trains have the shortest turn at the terminal? Bergen Line 1173 returns to Hoboken as Main Line 1130, and that's a 6 minute turn at Suffern. Since both always use a multilevel set, the conductors don't have to flip seats, so that speeds things up. I believe that set is also used on 1161 and 1122, which has a half hour turn at Suffern and then another half hour turn at Hoboken before being used on 1173, just to compare it.
You're a little off....
1169's EQ turns to 1130
1171's EQ is a finish
1173's EQ turns to X112

Crewing turns is a whole different animal, crews don't always stay with the equipment turns. The only correct thing you have is 1161 turning to 1122, which then turns to 1173 in Hoboken.

On paper the minimum time that is tried to keep revenue to revenue 20 minutes and this isn't done often. Revenue to non-revenue / non-revenue to revenue minimum is 15 minutes and this also isn't done often.
Just like trainbrain says that both the last 2 expresses out of HOB are 3 car sets which they are not...

blowing a lot of smoke...
 #1399053  by trainbrain
 
The last two express trains have both used 3 car sets. It used to be that 63 was 5 cars and 65 was 3, but that has since flip flopped. There are two 3 car sets because 56 and 58 both have them. One of them is used on 49, which deadheads back to Hoboken. The second one has to return to Port Jervis as either 67 or 41. Not sure which one.

I always like to try and find out the rotations, but without an employee timetable, I'll never figure them all out.
 #1399778  by DestinationUnknown
 
EuroStar wrote:In fact I believe that in general the conductors and the engineers have different rotations i.e. the same engineer and conductors are not paired for the duration of their workdays.
This is incorrect.