Expansion

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:58 pm

Greg Moore wrote:I want to toss out a radical concept.

But, perhaps Amtrak should consider expansions into Mexico? Problem is, I'm not sure how many would be viable and if they'd work.

The natural Mexican service extension would be to bring the Texas Eagle from San Antonio across the border to Monterrey.

Again, when both KCS and UP made substantial investments and assumed operational oversight of the two largest Mexican systems, the word was out: get rid of the passenger trains - and "Don't even think of a Mextrak".

The government knew they had a hopeless make work bureaucracy on their hands. One photo I saw from a noted rail photographer, contemporary of mine, was of the communications room at Buenavista (Mexico passenger station) was this army of telegraphers clicking away during 1972, or thereabouts. Even back then, the standard was teletype; labor intensive compared with today's electronic communications, but much less so than telegraph.

So the government complied with the wishes of their "Benefactores del Norte".

During the 1972 funding legislation (surprise!!! Amtrak was not to need funding, or so said the Incorporators), Amtrak was mandated to start international services. This resulted first with The Montrealer, followed by both the Adirondack, International, Pacific International, and the Maple Leaf. To Mexico, the Inter American started as a Fort Worth-Laredo daylight train ATSF to Temple, thence MP to Laredo. Actual International service was "to begin at a date to be announced". An X-border transfer was arranged (no formalities needed) with taxicabs, an English-speaking NdeM representative and the NdeM agreed hold the A'guila Azteca to Mexico, DF if necessary. Your Tourist Card was prepared aboard the train.

With the political instability, and even if some of the most beautiful and intriguing scenery I've seen anywhere on my travels is in the Interior, I don't know who in their right mind would be about to undertake such travel today. I guess if you have need to go to a major city or want to a resort area where you can fly in fly out, that's one thing. Otherwise, I got popped at enough times in The Nam (really, not all that often, but still "enough") to avoid "going to look for it".

But still waiting on the "announcement".

Mexico does have a passenger train with great scenery. It runs on the Copper Canyon route Chihuahua to Los Mochis. There was just a short period of time the train was extended all the way to Fort Worth. Don't try to tell me it did not exist, I saw it with my own eyes running through my home town. But that was before 2001, at least 20 years ago.
https://www.coppercanyon.com/index.php/train
So the truth is that you can still ride a passenger train in Mexico.
p.s. From recent photos I saw on the internet, you would also learn what a "swamp" evaporator cooler is, as it appears that is how they cool these trains today.

Transit gets more riders so why waste money on intercity rail is about the dumbest argument I've ever heard given we need both for the country to properly function as a whole, but in the context of this convo, let's dance:

Transit will have multiple stops in a city like TJ or Juarez. That means either immigration formalities at every stop for pax to go through prior to boarding or going through the immigration formalities for the entire vehicle at the border. Obviously having immigration at every stop is a monumental expense, and at transit like frequencies, holding vehicles packed with riders to be processed isn't going to work either. Only other way could be a transit vehicle pulls up, unloads people to go through the formalities, and picks up the ones that were dropped off by the preceeding vehicle who by that time have cleared immigration. Even then, you still have to clear the crew, so again, at transit headways, it still might not be doable.

Intercity rail, on the other hand, typically will drop off at 1 location in a city and operates far longer headways. In the context of the 3 places I've proposed (TJ, Nogales, Monterrey), we're talking about going to 1 city. That being said, the options are now:
1. Immigration formalities at the 1 station on the Mexican side of the border, much like when you land at an airport in a new country
2. Since you don't have to worry as much about trains stacking up behind you (depending on the frequency of service), immigration boards at the border to conduct their business on the train. A much less desirable approach as one idiot who doesn't have their shit together can hold up the entire train (I've seen this happen dozens of times when I drove for Greyhound 2 nights a week between NYC and Montreal. After a few hours they'll finally tell you go ahead and leave, this one is staying behind).

The same method could be used for bringing Toronto service to Detroit. Rather than a thru train to Chicago which will be prone to border delays, better to let everyone connect in Detroit. If your paperwork is fucked up and it takes longer to process you, catch the next one. Obviously this requires somewhat decent headways, but the point remains that you're not penalizing everyone on the entire line for a few idiots. In the case of Mexico, the only one I feel strongly about is Monterrey. As I said before, TJ would be done just as well by extending a single track for the Surfliner to San Ysidro (unless you wanted to provide an expedited immigration processing for these pax by operating directly into TJ and having a dedicated immigration team either at a TJ station or for the train at the border so they don't have to wait in line with everyone else at the existing border station). Nogales I'm not so sure the market is as pronounced.

Regarding some people's personal desire or opinion on travel to Mexico, well, that's just it, your personal opinion. I lived in Puebla and never once felt unsafe. Other parts of the country, yes. That doesn't change the fact that thousands travel throughout the country and between the US and Mexico by bus on a daily basis. The market is there.. Just watch the San Ysidro crossing one day and you'll see it plain as day. Long distance bus travel is the norm in Mexico and tapping into that market would be a win for Amtrak and quite possibly for us as taxpayers as well by adding ridership to certain routes, especially in the case of the Pacific Surfliner

electricron wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:26 am Mexico does have a passenger train with great scenery. It runs on the Copper Canyon route Chihuahua to Los Mochis. There was just a short period of time the train was extended all the way to Fort Worth.

So the "Copper Canyon Limited", "El Chepe", or whatever else they call it still runs? Surprised.

I rode the route San-Blas-Chihuahua during '75 in a Rolls Royce DMU that offered "Prepared On Board" meals. The "bisteca" was quite good - and I didn't get sick!!!

There also is/was an excursion train from Tecate to Tequila. Now why would anyone want to go there?

Finally, I'd sure like to know more about any kind of direct service to Ft. Worth. I believe we are addressing the Inter-American that did originate in Ft. Worth when it first started.

But a through Los Mochis-Ft. Worth train? I think some fact checking on that is the order of the day.

Incidentially, as late as '58, there was an NY-Mexico Pullman line. It left NY on PRR #3 Penn-Texas that carried Pullmans for interchange with the MP (PRR even had MP liveried Pullmans named "Eagle --"). After '58, it lived on as a St Louis-Mexico line until about '62.

Finally, who around here knew Amtrak once had a Station Code SAM. Guesses, anyone?

Matt Johnson wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:34 pm I'm curious about the Amtrak-VIA connections in Michigan. Are there any to speak of, or are the two lines that almost meet just coincidentally close to each other with no real viable connection for travelers? I know once upon a time there was a through train called the International, and Amtrak has more recently expressed interest in a Chicago - Toronto train. I happened to catch a VIA train on the tracker showing what speeds are possible on existing lines under Canadian law!

Right up until Covid hit you could depart New York Penn Station on the Maple Leaf at 6:40am connect in Aldershot, Ontario to a VIA train through London and be in Windsor at 11:45pm. And if you don't think Detroit or N. Ohio/SE Mich residents use Windsor....just stroll through the station parking lot there and look at the tags (These were mostly travelers taking VIA to/from Toronto.....Covid aside!!)

Eastbound the the VIA Train missed the connection to the Maple Leaf at Aldershot by a half-hour so a little tweaking would restore it....... but Windsor-Aldershot-New York has been available at various times.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:25 pm So the "Copper Canyon Limited", "El Chepe", or whatever else they call it still runs? Surprised.

I rode it San-Blas-Chihuahua during '75.

There also is/was an excursion train from Tecate to Tequila. Now why would anyone want to go there?

Finally, I'd sure like to know more about any kind of direct service to Ft. Worth. I believe we are addressing the Inter-American that did originate in Ft. Worth when it first started.

But a through Los Mochis-Ft. Worth train? I think some fact checking on that is the order of the day.

I really need to try to remember the details but I do remember riding through Mexico by train in the 80s. We needed to cross the border from El Paso to CD Juarez to board a train to Chihuahua and then the next day take another train from Chihuahua to Los Mochis via the Copper Canyon. There was no direct connection at least at that time.

I had a great trip on the Aztec Eagle from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City with college buddies in 1983. Nice old Pullman-style sleeper that cost us less than $30 each way, IIRC. We had to Greyhound down to the border from San Antonio.

There does appear to be another passenger train service in Mexico: https://www.travelandleisure.com/trip-i ... experience I'm sure Mr. Norman would consider this more 'experiential' than necessary transportation.

I'm all for Amtrak extending service across an international border, if the incremental revenue comes anywhere close to the incremental cost. Given some large population centers right across the border in a few places (Toronto, etc.) there may be opportunities.

Right up until Covid hit you could depart New York Penn Station on the Maple Leaf at 6:40am connect in Aldershot, Ontario to a VIA train through London and be in Windsor at 11:45pm. And if you don't think Detroit or N. Ohio/SE Mich residents use Windsor....just stroll through the station parking lot there and look at the tags (These were mostly travelers taking VIA to/from Toronto.....Covid aside!!)

Eastbound the the VIA Train missed the connection to the Maple Leaf at Aldershot by a half-hour so a little tweaking would restore it....... but Windsor-Aldershot-New York has been available at various times.

So, really, Detroit-Toronto and Detroit-NYP train travel has been almost possible very recently, and really the only obstacles to having it be an attractive mode of travel for more people are the two border crossings and the possibility of missing the connection in Aldershot? If we could get CSX and whoever the host in in Canada to let the Maple Leaf run on time nearly always, and get VIA and Amtrak to guarantee connections at Aldershot, the only real problem would be border crossings? The station in Windsor looks to be closer to downtown Detroit than the existing Amtrak station is; it's certainly closer to most of Detroit than the St. Paul Union Depot is most of Minneapolis. It's closer to downtown Detroit than Essex Jct is to downtown Burlington, and Amtrak calls that Burlington/Essex Jct. What's the value added of having a train run under the river? The border will be there either way, and having people go by bus or car probably speeds things up. Sealed train sounds like a lot of bother and a possible source of resentment on both sides of the border. I remember seeing some national Amtrak timetables that mentioned the possibility of getting from Detroit to New York via Ontario, but I feel like in the more recent ones (last twenty years or more) it was just a one-sentence note, not an actual schedule. It seems like it should be low-hanging fruit to remake the needed agreements with VIA and advertise the route as an Amtrak route (*only pax with necessary ID and permission to leave and reenter the US and Canada), assuming the border crossing near Niagara Falls is working reasonably once the border is open again.

A sealed train isn't as onerous as it sounds, and it's certainly preferable to going thru border control twice.

I'd push for a hybrid solution -- sealed cars for those traveling thru, and unsealed cars with border control agents aboard to do pre-clearance prior to reaching the respective border. If there are enough corridor trains, you could probably ride one-way and deadhead home without exceeding their duty time. Alternatively, overnight at the border and repeat on the next day's return trip.

From personal experience traveling internationally and working in the customs facilities at O'Hare & JFK, I'd guess that ~90% of people take 60 seconds or less to present and clear document inspection. If you're a US or Canadian resident, it goes quick. The number of non-US or non-Canadian travelers traveling by rail should be small enough that a couple of agents could easily handle the inspection between a couple station stops, with the ability to hand off anyone questionable at or even before the border.

Mexico might present different issues (e.g. more non-MX/US travelers), but that can be dealt with by scale.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:46 pm So, really, Detroit-Toronto and Detroit-NYP train travel has been almost possible very recently, and really the only obstacles to having it be an attractive mode of travel for more people are the two border crossings and the possibility of missing the connection in Aldershot? If we could get CSX and whoever the host in in Canada to let the Maple Leaf run on time nearly always, and get VIA and Amtrak to guarantee connections at Aldershot, the only real problem would be border crossings?

The connection in Aldershot is VIA to VIA as the Maple Leaf is a VIA operated train while in Canada. CN is the host railway and unlike the Canadian...CN maintains schedules of Corridor trains quite well.

The 45 miles of track from Windsor to near Chatham is actually VIA owned track but if a through train was extended through the tunnel it could not use this VIA track without a time consuming route through industrial trackage in Windsor. Better route would be a straight shot from the tunnel to Chatham on CP.