Empire Station Complex, aka New York Pennsylvania Station

Not rail related, but definitely "over the rails" related:

New York Times

Fair Use;

On Monday, two New York City Council committees voted to grant Madison Square Garden Entertainment a five-year operating permit, half the length of its current 10-year operating permit that expired last month........If the full City Council defers to the committees’ stance as expected when it votes in September, it will give the Garden its shortest permit in its history; its initial permit was for 50 years.......At issue is the Garden’s relationship with Penn Station, the country’s most heavily used train station and an unavoidable bane for hundreds of thousands of New York commuters..

Five years is ample time to find a new location, if the plans for a new Penn Station have not been finalized, it would only be reasonable to grant further short term extensions.

Now those residing in the area (I haven't since '70) might have some ideas where in Manhattan a new facility convenient to mass transportation could be located, but I'm at a loss. Considering the last time I set foot in MSG was for the Circus - and that was at 8th Ave & 49th St - it's of little concern to me.

I have an easy answer for that, and it solves another problem caused by the current NY administration: Move it across 7th Avenue.

Seriously. Buy everyone out between 7th Ave and 6th Ave and 31st through 33rd streets. Raise it (and 32nd street in that block), plunk a garage and MSG on it, rebuild some buildings so folks don't miss out on their lattes from Starbucks, and you're done. Access to the 1/2/3, B/D/F/M/N/Q/R/W, and short walk to the A/C/E via Penn Madison... although it should be renamed Penn Central.

All you have to do now is plop a "cheap" (yeah, I know, this is New York) hotel on top of a rebuilt Penn Station, and a more expensive (maybe long-term) hotel as well, and you got it made.

Thank you, Mr. Wolf, for choosing not to "plop" your new MSG atop 30 Lafayette Ave (Brooklyn), 881 7th Ave (57th St), 10 Lincoln Center Plaza (65th St), or otherwise "my entertainment venues" in New York

Mr. Wolf, what you propose would cost an astronomical amount of money. Of course, so would "Penn South". The most suitable location is over the West Side LIRR Yard. However, that screws MSG, Dolan, and fans who now have the most convenient transit connection to Amtrak, LIRR, NJT, and in 4 or so years MNRR.

In other news: Gothamist

Penn Station overhaul sparks feud between MTA and Amtrak

The MTA’s $7 billion plan to renovate Penn Station got off to a rocky start last month when the agency’s top officials boxed Amtrak executives out of a closed door meeting on the new design of the Midtown train hub, according to an internal letter from an Amtrak leader.

The July 17 letter was sent to Amtrak, MTA and NJ Transit leaders by Jennie Kwon, the national railroad’s vice president for capital delivery. The memo details a meeting MTA officials held with a firm hired to consult on the station’s redesign.

The letter — which was obtained by Gothamist through a source — states the July 6 “kickoff” meeting was not attended by or approved by Amtrak, which owns Penn Station.
...

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:31 am The most suitable (MSG) location is over the West Side LIRR Yard. However, that screws MSG, Dolan, and fans who now have the most convenient transit connection to Amtrak, LIRR, NJT, and in 4 or so years MNRR.

Wasn't an NYCTA Subway line extended over to the Hudson Yards development which would give ready access to a facility atop the LIRR yard?

The 7 was, but that would require a ride uptown to Times Square to connect with it from Penn.

It's not too bad of a walk between Penn and the West Side Yard; I used to walk to the Intrepid from Penn no problem. That said, if you're older and/or have mobility issues I could see that being a real bear.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:31 am Mr. Wolf, what you propose would cost an astronomical amount of money. Of course, so would "Penn South". The most suitable location is over the West Side LIRR Yard. However, that screws MSG, Dolan, and fans who now have the most convenient transit connection to Amtrak, LIRR, NJT, and in 4 or so years MNRR.

They already started spending that money when they started pulling down the Pennsylvanian Hotel on a boondoggle of office space. Even I saw that was a waste of cash, and I'm closer to DC! I'd also argue that putting MSG on Penn Station itself was a tremendous waste of money.

I'm not going to dispute that it's going to take lottery winning levels of money to move MSG anywhere. I'm just aiming for the "biggest bang for the buck" and "killing two birds with one stone." That means MSG moves across the street and Penn Station gets a hotel.

Why is this the city's problem to solve? MSG knew that their time was limited, they knew when this expired, they saw the writing on the wall.

How about taking responsibility for your business decisions and moving the venue elsewhere? How about the meadowlands complex? Maybe we could get regular service on that line then.

Parking lots at Citi Field certainly take up a lot of space...

I can’t see the Knicks or Rangers playing anywhere except Manhattan. I think it’s Hudson Yards or bust.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:04 am I can’t see the Knicks or Rangers playing anywhere except Manhattan. I think it’s Hudson Yards or bust.

You got plenty of room over Hudson Yards, but you gotta deal with putting the supports somewhere in that yard... and it looks like it needs reconfiguration anyway for safety. The only down side is that it has a single two-track line.

Meanwhile, you gotta knock down more buildings to move MSG across 7th Ave... but you retain access to Penn Station, you get some complaints about getting to the A/C/E but you keep the 1/2/3, LIRR, NJ Transit, Amtrak... and you get 8 more subway lines to boot!

No doubt, MSG's gotta move. But as I just scrape more stuff off, I'm finding more reason just to move it across the street.

Long article on James Dolan in The Times this past Sunday. Absent being a sports or "Spectacular" fan, not much of interest around here - except for two small rail related paragraphs within:

Fair Use:

He does not expect progress anytime soon. For more than 20 years, there has been talk about improving Penn Station, he said. “The best I give it, personally, is 50-50 that anything will happen,” he said to the renovation of Pennsylvania Station, the rail depot that sits dank and dark beneath the Garden.

Politicians and bureaucrats castigate him for leading a company that enjoys enormous tax benefits while insisting that he will not financially contribute. That would include not contributing to the cost of a future Penn Station project. “That’s a civic responsibility,” he said. “We’re a private enterprise. But we will certainly cooperate with it.”.

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Last point would appear to be a "don't bet on it".

The Port Authority is going ahead with a new bus terminal to replace the existing facility. I think incorporating a new Madison Square Garden as part of the that project would be an ideal new location. The benefits would be that it would have direct access to all those commuter bus lines, servicing 225,000 daily riders. The bus terminal has better subway access than Penn station, it has direct access to A, C, E and 1,2,3,7, N, Q, R, W trains and the Grand Central shuttle. And speaking of Grand Central with the shuttle it would be more convenient to Grand Central for fans traveling from North of the City and LIRR riders.

The new venue would be better incorporated into the entertainment in the area with 42nd street, the Broadway theaters, Times Square. There is a better selection of restaurants and hotels that would benefit from having major venue hosting events nearby. It's closer to the Javits Center for conventions, and about a 12-minute walk to the NY Waterway docks.

https://www.panynj.gov/bus-terminals/en ... -pabt.html

I am really confused as to why we need an absolutely beautiful Penn Station now. We have a Moynihan station that has recently opened that services LIRR and Amtrak. It is a big, airy, attractive building although I would personally would've preferred a European style train hall. I would've loved to see all the trains on their tracks as you enter the building.

With LIRR access to Grand Central, LIRR access on Moynihan stations, Penn Station probably services half of LIRR passengers and all of NJT ones. LIRR terminal in Penn station has already been renovated without making major structural changes. Why not just do the same for NJT part and that would be good enough for what is now a suburban train station.

I think it is much more important to keep investing in a state of god repair of all the rail infrastructure, rails, switches, bridges, tunnels, etc. It is not even clear at this point if we require more trans Hudson capacity. I understand the passenger volumes have recovered but still off the 2019 numbers.

Defiant wrote:I am really confused as to why we need an absolutely beautiful Penn Station now. We have a Moynihan station that has recently opened that services LIRR and Amtrak. It is a big, airy, attractive building although I would personally would've preferred a European style train hall. I would've loved to see all the trains on their tracks as you enter the building.

With LIRR access to Grand Central, LIRR access on Moynihan stations, Penn Station probably services half of LIRR passengers and all of NJT ones. LIRR terminal in Penn station has already been renovated without making major structural changes. Why not just do the same for NJT part and that would be good enough for what is now a suburban train station.

I think it is much more important to keep investing in a state of god repair of all the rail infrastructure, rails, switches, bridges, tunnels, etc. It is not even clear at this point if we require more trans Hudson capacity. I understand the passenger volumes have recovered but still off the 2019 numbers.

Using Penn Station again this past weekend I'm more convinced than ever of the desperate need to rebuild Penn Station. Moynihan is beautiful, but it really only works as an Amtrak facility (I know LIRR can access from there). Long distance train riders are better suited for the Moynihan facility as the need to be closer to subway lines and offices are not as important as it is for commuters. The current Penn needs to rebuilt for LIRR, NJ Transit and soon Metro North. It doesn't not need to be as grand as Grand Central or the Oculus at the World Trade Center. What it needs is to consolidate to one level, get MSG moved and open up the ceilings to let light filter down to the concourses. Widen the platforms, add new platforms for post Gateway NJ Transit service increases, and it desperately needs new wider stairs, escalators and elevators to the platforms. It's dangerously crowded. Renovate all areas to one design that all tenants pay a common contract to maintain. New concessions, new seating areas.

LIRR riders have shown they still overwhelmingly prefer Penn Station vs. Grand Central Madison. After the initial opening LIRR has shifted trains from East Side Access back to Penn Station.