Electrifying Freight Lines

scharnhorst wrote:Dude Railroads are Cheap! If they wanted Electric Lines and all that crap they would have keeped them. 2.) Any railroad that had Electric operations owned there own power houses so that they did not have to pay Electric Bill's. 3.) There is not a single one of them that is going to spend billions of dollars to build a Nuclear Plant and pay a group of guys with 3 digit I.Q.'s to stand around and run a Nuclear Plant, pay an Army of trigger happy Rent a Cops to guard it with loaded M16 Machine Gun's and army tanks! and spend three quarters of there yearly earnings to keep in up to code with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the International Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC)

Railroads would simply buy electric energy from the public utilities along their route. New natural gas-fired generation is cheapest, followed by coal (if it could be permitted under environmental emissions limits). Nuclear is next in line, and is on hold largely because of cheap natural gas availability. Capital cost, not operating cost, is by far the determining factor for nuclear.
Enviros strongly oppose hydro, and there is not much undeveloped potential there anyway. There are no other practicable, economic generation technologies other than nuclear that are essentially environmentally benign.

Rocketjet,

I do not live in Wyoming. I live in Western Nebraska. We have one AMTRAK train. Wyoming has none.

If you live in a densely populated area, then no, we do not live in the same world. In my world, concern about carbon footprints means worrying that your vehicle might leave an oil spot on your driveway. Neither of mine do, so no carbon footprint worries.

We do not have transportation alternatives. That is fine. We also do not expect people in other states to have to pay so we can have the option of not being self-sufficient in transportation. Having personal transportation here is considered a personal responsibility.

Wyoming (130 miles west of me) produces coal that feeds power plants all over the country. It is so low in sulfur, it is mixed with coal produced in the East to produce a blend that will fall within EPA requirements.

We produce electricity with that coal that feeds the power grid that supplies not only Nebraska but the surrounding states.

"Green" political agendas are not popular here. Neither are self-professed environmental geniuses who seek to line their pockets at public expense. Coal is mined and burned in this area. The air is clean and so is the land. It is just fine as far as we are concerned.

If you choose to live in a smog pocket, it is not us who have created it. If air pollution bothers you so much, why didn't you settle down in the middle of the country where the air is clean? Why do you advocate a technology that can literally make places uninhabitable?

The environmental geniuses you hold in such high regard always know what is better for the rest of us. They seem to congregate in the academic community, an isolated and intellectually stunted world in itself. They need to spend a little time in the real world.

Les

Scharnhorst,

Natural gas is indeed a viable alternative for power generation. I lived in a small city in New Mexico that has a natural-gas fueled plant. The gas is drawn from a well on the property, no transportation costs!

It is extremely clean. No residual pollution. No danger.

Les

Desertdweller wrote:Scharnhorst,

Natural gas is indeed a viable alternative for power generation. I lived in a small city in New Mexico that has a natural-gas fueled plant. The gas is drawn from a well on the property, no transportation costs!

It is extremely clean. No residual pollution. No danger.

Les

Everything in my home up here in Central New York State is powered by Coal we mostly use Natural Gas for heating and cooking a few places near me are also on Thermal Wells and at leased 2 factory's in town have there own Hydro dams. My power provider in Now way buys there Electric from the Nine Mile Nuclear Plant.

It will be interesting to see what and where the Electricity comes from when I relocate to Tulsa, Oklahoma next summer.

scharnhorst wrote:

Desertdweller wrote:Scharnhorst,

Natural gas is indeed a viable alternative for power generation. I lived in a small city in New Mexico that has a natural-gas fueled plant. The gas is drawn from a well on the property, no transportation costs!

It is extremely clean. No residual pollution. No danger.

Les

Everything in my home up here in Central New York State is powered by Coal we mostly use Natural Gas for heating and cooking a few places near me are also on Thermal Wells and at leased 2 factory's in town have there own Hydro dams. My power provider in Now way buys there Electric from the Nine Mile Nuclear Plant.

It will be interesting to see what and where the Electricity comes from when I relocate to Tulsa, Oklahoma next summer.

Only 6% of New York in-state capacity is from coal. Granted it will run more than oil, but less than other sources. See: http://www.nyiso.com/public/about_nyiso ... /index.jsp

like in New York, your Oklahoma power can come from anywhere in the Eastern Interconnection, the dark blue area on the map. It is one giant machine. For example, when several large generators tripped off-line 3 or 4 years ago in Florida our system operators here in New Jersey saw a significant instantaneous voltage drop on our transmission system until the automatic protection system separated Florida from the rest of the Interconnection. Click on the link to see the map.

http://www.landtrustalliance.org/policy ... 1419685c09

Desertdweller wrote:Rocketjet,

I do not live in Wyoming. I live in Western Nebraska. We have one AMTRAK train. Wyoming has none.

If you live in a densely populated area, then no, we do not live in the same world. In my world, concern about carbon footprints means worrying that your vehicle might leave an oil spot on your driveway. Neither of mine do, so no carbon footprint worries.

We do not have transportation alternatives. That is fine. We also do not expect people in other states to have to pay so we can have the option of not being self-sufficient in transportation. Having personal transportation here is considered a personal responsibility.

Wyoming (130 miles west of me) produces coal that feeds power plants all over the country. It is so low in sulfur, it is mixed with coal produced in the East to produce a blend that will fall within EPA requirements.

We produce electricity with that coal that feeds the power grid that supplies not only Nebraska but the surrounding states.

"Green" political agendas are not popular here. Neither are self-professed environmental geniuses who seek to line their pockets at public expense. Coal is mined and burned in this area. The air is clean and so is the land. It is just fine as far as we are concerned.

If you choose to live in a smog pocket, it is not us who have created it. If air pollution bothers you so much, why didn't you settle down in the middle of the country where the air is clean? Why do you advocate a technology that can literally make places uninhabitable?

The environmental geniuses you hold in such high regard always know what is better for the rest of us. They seem to congregate in the academic community, an isolated and intellectually stunted world in itself. They need to spend a little time in the real world.

Les

Got it, Wisconsin. Right...Wisconsin...as of 2000, you represent about 1.83% of America, I'm afraid you may be overestimating how much you represent the interests of America. I'm happy to hear your value of personal responsibility as far as personal transportation, but then I wasn't arguing about Amtrak, I was talking about the private freights (mostly the Big 4): BNSF, UP, CSX, and NS.

I recommend journeying to a more populated state to see how their perspective may be different from yours. I actually found your characterization of the intellectuals of society to be rather insulting. These "geniuses" you speak of are indeed part of the academic community, but I think it is silly and rather immature of you to say they are "isolated" and "Intellectually stunted". They are by definition, well educated, worldly, and concerned with problems beyond their own. If they are actually considered to be intellectuals (where I live at least), they are usually well-read and their analysis tends to be pretty objective whether or not they are right. Where I live, we tend to respect intellect and those who are well educated, even if they disagree with us.

I am amused by your description of "smog pocket", I will not blame the other states for our smog issues but I also don't need to explain why I dont live in Middle America as my reasons would probably be insulting to you but I say this: it has been proved that city dwellers live in the most sustainable way possible. For example, if New York, a place with a population comparable to a small state (larger population than Wisconsin as a while) were given statehood, they would rank 51st in energy consumption. Think what you will about cities, you cannot say they are not trying to improve air quality.

So then to answer your question of why I advocate a technology that can literally make places "uninhabitable", I don't...I advocate for a energy-producing technology that when built and operated properly, has largest energy output and smallest physical and carbon footprint.

Rocketjet,

You missed my state again. If you had read my post, I live in Nebraska, not Wisconsin. It is 700 miles from my home to Wisconsin.
It is all the same to you anyway: fly-over territory.

I doubt if you can find a more insulated society than intellectual academics. Cloistered monks, maybe.
These guys live in careers guaranteed by tenure, not performance. Paychecks issued either by the government or by like-thinking university boards. They live in a protected environment surrounded by peers who support their opinions. Apparently, they have enough free time to formulate policies for politicians to foist on the hoi poli.
You are right. That description is rather insulting.

Why do you think that city dwellers live in the most sustainable way possible? From what I see, they live in the least sustainable way possible. And the bigger the city, the less sustainable it is. New York City, being our biggest city, is our least sustainable. Los Angeles and Chicago rank right behind.

Let me explain this by comparing how a sudden, unexpected failure of the infrastructure would impact an urban dweller verses an inhabitant of a city like mine. The inhabitant of the big city is dependent on the urban infrastructure. What happens if the electricity fails? Turn on the faucet and nothing comes out? Walk to the grocery store, and no food? No refrigeration, and no way to sell anything because there is no power. What if the fiat printed money becomes worth only a fraction of its face value, or no value at all?
Decide to leave town before you starve? Better start walking, because you have no transportation.

Using my little town of less than five thousand as an example, we have a sufficient local water supply, and a local supply of hydro power to supply the city. Everyone except the destitute and the infirm have their own vehicles. We have a locally inexhaustible supply of food in our lake, and local farms and ranches. The fish are free to anyone, the rest can be bartered for. Virtually every household has at least some form of tangible wealth. Virtually every household is armed. Virtually every household grows at least some of its own food, and stores food. We are sustainable, and could even back our own local currency if we had to. The fact that we are far from the nearest big city is a strength, not a weakness.

I live where I do by choice, not because I have to. The work I did (as a contractor locomotive engineer) was always away from home, so I could live anywhere in the country. My travel expenses, my housing on the job, and my meal expenses were paid by my employers. It did not matter to them where I lived. I own another home in a town the same size as this in Mississippi. The strengths of that community are the same as this one.

New York City is not sustainable. If it were, it would not continually be going bankrupt. Its low rate of per capita energy consumption is a function of its population density. When you pack a large number of residents into large apartment buildings, the energy consumption per capita is going to be less. Compare that with families of two to four people living in houses on quarter-acre lots. Multi-family apartment buildings heated by central heating plants save energy. Use of public transit in lieu of private vehicles saves energy per capita. But low energy consumption per capita does not translate to sustainability. Survivability translates to sustainability.

I presume the reasons I like it here may be the same reasons you wouldn't. At least we have the option.

Les

Les,

The old saying (or song) says, "A Country Boy can survive"..and he can! The city dwellers look down their noses at country folk as "hicks" and buffoons while, without them, they-would quickly STARVE. For HE is the guy that grows acres of wheat, corn, vegetables and fruits so the city dweller can eat! The beef, poultry, and pork are raised by the farmer albeit there's more corporate farming than in the past. Nonetheless, the country folks still have gardens in the summer and can 'put up' vegetables thru a process called "canning" and "kill a hog" or slaughter beef in cool WX for a freezer packed to capacity and a "root cellar" filled with food. Moreover, during hunting season, they can hunt ducks, geese, bear and the plentiful deer. Processed correctly, deer (venison) is a wonderful source of steaks, chops, roasts, and hamburgers. I used to LIVE on venison cheeseburgers. Us country bumpkins have YARDS in which to grow a garden filled with beans, peppers, corn, peas, cabbage/lettuce, tomatoes, and cantaloupe. Where do you think your "sustainable" cities GET their food (to the fellow who spoke of "more sustainable cities")? In all my life I never heard a supermarket "moo", or sprout beans! Many of the "city slickers" have never seen a real cow except on TV, or a live chicken: they come in cellophane wrappers in the dairy/meat case. Yeah, right!!!!!!! LMAO!!!! If they did see a cow, they'd probably run like h--! I've been chased by cows, chickens, geese, turkeys--you name it! Back (well, not so long ago, my family plowed with a horse or a mule, and made me do it, too. Woe be unto me if I got them rows crooked!!!!! I spend hours and hours on a John Deere tractor or riding a combine, or pulling/shelling peanuts. We raised potatoes of all varieties--most Irish and sweet. We would be considered "poor", but you know what? Our table was FILLED with a healthy bounty every meal. We didn't KNOW we were "poor" because we had food to eat and a roof over our heads. The house was not fancy, and it was heated with an oil heater in the den: The rest of the house got whatever heat it could. I woke up many a night with ICE on the inside of the windows. We ASKED for nothing, we made DO with LITTLE, and lived quite happily. I would love to go back to those days of simple, country living and the sound of a John Deere tractor "pop-popping" in my ear!!!!!

So if I were betting on the urbane, all-so-wise city dweller who thinks supermarkets can "moo", I would bet on the country "bumpkin" like me who came up in a hard scrabble. One who knows how to feed himself! One who can raise beef. One who can raise chickens for meat and eggs. One who can hop on a tractor and plow a straight row! One's city intellect won't FEED you!

GF

GF,

I can certainly relate to your post. The first "vehicle" I ever drive on a public road was a Ford 8N tractor.
Out here, west of the 100th meridian, we do not have the general farming I grew up with in Iowa. It is just too hot and dry to raise chickens and hogs. But we could make up for that with game. We have pheasants, quail, turkeys, ducks and geese. Also harvestable quantities of whitetail deer, mule deer, and elk. Antelope country starts a half-hour drive to the west.
We also have in quantity squirrels, cottontail rabbits, jack rabbits, and raccoons.

My little garden did not produce very well this year because of the severe weather, but I plan to expand it next year. My neighbor and I shared produce this summer. I have a large back yard that could be made into a garden in an emergency if I had enough lead time. It could be big enough to feed two or three families.

The country out here has not changed much in appearance for the past several centuries, especially areas not under cultivation. I was up in the Panhandle this week, mostly open ranch land. Except for the highway I was on, and the UP coal line beside it, there was little evidence of civilization. An early trapper or Cheyenne would have recognized it immediately.

It looks much the same in Montana where I drove along the abandoned MILW right of way a few years ago. I always read that main line electrification requires dense traffic along relatively short hauls. Yet here a heavy-duty electric railroad ran through miles of empty countryside. It is still a matter of debate whether the electrification shortened the railroad's life or prolonged it.
Nevertheless, it worked for 58 years.

I strongly suspect the UP could and would electrify its main lines if it thought it would be economically feasible in the long run. The UP has always looked to me like an organization that is geared for long-range plans rather than trying to make a fast buck.
Maybe the best solution was presented by Jtgshu: the use of ALP-type locos that can operate off overhead or internal combustion as needed.

I also remember the BN loco sets that operated off compressed natural gas. I don't know why this project was not successful. Maybe the railroad felt the CNG was unsafe to haul around next to the engine, or maybe fuel oil was cheaper to buy and handle. I suspect that most of us who have had occasion to fuel Diesel locomotives have had an unfortunate experience of getting sprayed with fuel when the shutoff on the nozzle kicks back. A need for a quick shower and a clean set of clothes would sure beat being sprayed with LNG.

A local railroad I worked for awhile fuels their locomotives with bio-Diesel (Ruby Red Diesel). So if you get sprayed, you also get dyed! I put my wet clothes in a trash bag and presented it to my wife: put it in a new Maytag washer, or the trash can. The trash can won.

Les

Desertdweller wrote:I also remember the BN loco sets that operated off compressed natural gas. I don't know why this project was not successful. Maybe the railroad felt the CNG was unsafe to haul around next to the engine, or maybe fuel oil was cheaper to buy and handle.

At least one factor was probably the fuel density per gallon. See this chart: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/afv_info.pdf

Roughly 4 times as many gallons needed versus No. 2 oil. Easier and more flexible to refuel remotely with No. 2.

Rocketjet,

After further consideration, maybe I was a little hard on the academics. After all, even they do not all think alike.
My problem with them is that a group of people, isolated from the realities of society, take it upon themselves to try to force their solutions on the rest of us.

I'm glad you liked what you saw in Wyoming. Much of the center of this country, roughly west of the 100th Meridian, resembles that.
A big, empty, unspoiled land. People who worry about overpopulation should come out here and see this. There are places where you can look 360 degrees and not see a thing that is man-made, except for the road beneath you.

The land here does not change unless man changes it. I am on the route of the Oregon Trail. Wagon ruts from the traffic on this trail are still visible at several places within a few miles of here.

The western frontier still exists, in appearance and spirit, if not on maps. Start at 100th Meridian and consider the area north of Interstate 80 to the Canadian Border. Consider the area south of that area, down to the Mexican Border and west to the Rocky Mountains. Consider the Rocky Mountains, the Great Basin, and everything west to the California line. Only a few urbanized areas within this great expanse do not fit the frontier description.

This is country that could benefit from a minimal passenger service, even if it were only a mixed train in the winter run when the roads are impassible. That is a subject for a different post.

Les

GF,

I remember when I was in high school, being awakened by my neighbor's "Johnny Popper". And pheasants crowing in the back yard.
And my sleek Ford hot rod in the driveway, with the modified flathead V8.

There is no doubt that I remember it being better than it actually was. But I had my whole life ahead of me, and it was pretty good.
I never again felt so in control of my life until I retired. It is a sense that my time (and therefore my life) belongs to me and not to an employer, no matter how good.

I strongly suspect you have the same feeling.

Les

Desertdweller wrote:GF,

I remember when I was in high school, being awakened by my neighbor's "Johnny Popper". And pheasants crowing in the back yard.
And my sleek Ford hot rod in the driveway, with the modified flathead V8.

There is no doubt that I remember it being better than it actually was. But I had my whole life ahead of me, and it was pretty good.
I never again felt so in control of my life until I retired. It is a sense that my time (and therefore my life) belongs to me and not to an employer, no matter how good.

I strongly suspect you have the same feeling.

Les

You're right. Sometimes I miss the railroad................................for a few seconds. Then its off to other things!!!!!


OH! BTW! This last weekend we had an event locally called "Cotton Ginnin' Days". There was every sort of single-cylinder engine, to plenty of Johnny Pops a-poppin', to Model T's, A's, and a real steam powered "pick up truck" made out of a Chevrolet chassis. It had a whistle that sounded like a calliope. There was another contraption---a Rube Goldberg thingamajig that have gears a-turnin', rods a-pumpin', whirligigs a-whirlin' powered by a lawnmower engine. Sign said" "You-nited States Gub'ment!!! There were arts and crafts everywhere, and a club sold tickets for a Massey Harris tractor with a mower, fully restored. Proceeds went to Holy Angels Catholic Charities and Children's Home in Belmont, NC. I didn't win---darn it! Another group had a bee exhibit where the bees were enclosed in a cage so the kids could watch them work, and honey was sold. There were sawmill demonstrations and water pumps, generators---all pulled by huge one-lunger engines that popped once in a while. Lots of fun and a reminder of how it was done in the past. And don't forget the miniature John Deere tractors modeled after various ones of the past. One fellow made an Allis Chalmers "G", with the engine in the rear (if you remember those). VERY accurate and cute!

GF

GF,

I miss it too.

But I realize I missed my children growing up because of it. Had to work most holidays, living far from home for months (or more) at a time. Seldom had time to spend with my wife. My career supported my family, but my family paid a price for that, too.

There was a time in my life for railroading, and that time is past. The last train I ran was powered by an ES-44-C4 leading two other units on the head end and two more DP on the rear, with 115 loads of coal in between. The last train I rode as a passenger was the Sunset Limited from Deming, NM to Del Rio TX and back. I had been away from home for 22 months straight. When I was eligible to retire, I took it.

I spend time at home now, and with my grandchildren. I dream about railroading a lot. I always dream some railroad is trying to hire me, and I always tell them no.

If I want to see trains, the UP main is a short walk down the street, and my model railroad is in my basement. 20 passenger trains making 40 arrivals and departures a day from Denver Union Station in the early 1960's. I just found out today that the guy who owned this house before me had a model railroad in the basement, too, in the same room mine is in. Is that cool or what?

Les