Electrification around NYC

We have discussions in various forums concerning electrification, mostly Amtrak and Metro-North topics. I thought I'd start one here for Gotham and the surrounding environs.

Items for discussion:

Catenary vs third rail
Constant tension vs. previous styles
Various voltages and frequencies, amps, all that stuff
Equipment requirements
Where we need electrification, where does it make sense? Where doesn't it?
What's preferable going forward?
How do we make various lines and systems compatible?

And of course, $$$$$$$$$$$$. What is the most efficient use of those $$$$$$$$$$$. Zero-build is an option.

Does the 25Hz static converter plant at Sunnyside Yard still operate at low output or is it now operating at its full nameplate capacity? The Wikipedia article on Amtrak’s 25Hz power system claims that the Sunnyside converter’s primary purpose is to provide reactive power and peaking capacity for the northern end of the 25Hz grid, and that it does so at “low continuous loading”.

I am also curious about the electrification adjustments that will be needed for the new Hudson River tunnels. Once the new tunnels are completed, will all of the existing 12kV non-catenary circuits from Hackensack to Penn Station be routed via the new tunnels only? Or will the existing tunnels have redundant 12kV circuits retained during their complete reconstruction? I’m curious to know how many total 12kV connections will exist between Hackensack, Penn Station and Sunnyside.

Starting with the existing lines (East of Hudson only):
Passenger service
Metro North:

• Hudson Line (ex-NYC): Under-running third rail @750v DC. GCT-Harmon (~33 miles). Non-electrified to Poughkeepsie (additional 40 miles).
• Harlem Line (ex-NYC): Under-running third rail @750v DC. GCT-Southeast (~54 miles). Non-electrified to Wassaic (additional 32 miles)
• New Haven Line (ex-NH): Overhead catenary @12.5Kv 60Hz AC. Woodlawn-New Haven (~61 miles)
• New Canaan Branch (ex-NH): Overhead catenary @12.5Kv 60Hz AC. Stamford-New Canaan (~8 miles)
• Danbury Branch (ex-NH): Non-electrified. South Norwalk - Danbury.
• Waterbury Branch (ex-NH): Non-electrified. Devon Jct - Waterbury.

Amtrak:

• Main Line (ex-PRR): Overhead catenary @11Kv 25Hz AC. Penn Station-Sunnyside Jct
• Hell Gate Line (ex-NY Connecting RR/NH): Overhead catenary @12.5Kv 60Hz AC. Sunnyside-New Rochelle
• Empire Connection (ex-NYC): Short section of over-running third rail @750v DC; otherwise non-electrified. Penn Station - Spuyten Duyvil.

Long Island Rail Road:

• All over-running third rail @750v DC.

Someone else will have to fill in the West of Hudson information.

The LIRR is mostly over-running third rail, but some sections like the Montauk and Greenport sections need diesel service and a transfer at Ronkonkoma for Greenport or a dual-mode equipment.

3rd rail seems to have limitations that cannot be readily overcome.
1. MNRR limits dual mode locos to 60 MPH when running off 3rd rail. Could that be to limit current draw on the 2 pickups?? Have no idea. EMUs spread out the current draw as they have much lower max current draw.
2. Are engineers limited to amount of throttle on dual mode they can use in E mode? That if true would make for slower acceleration.
3. Is it true that present locos cannot regenerate when in E mode?
4. Overhead CAT at 12.5 kV has no current draw limitations as it is the high voltage that reduce current draw.
5. If the Battery only helps a loco then some max acceleration will be lost.
6. Airos on the west side line using overhead CAT would be able to accelerate more quickly and would regenerate as well. Eight axel acceleration is just more able to reduce enroute schedules.
7. Overhead CAT along the west side line to a point beyond Spuyten that allows for operating at max track speed quicker has many benefits.
8. The NY electrical maintenance personnel have good experience with blending 25 hZ and 60 hZ systems with the Hell Gate change to 60 hZ.
9. someone needs to get with engineers and find if they notice operating M-8s on 3rd rail and overhead has any differences and if so, what?
10. IMO for some of the above reasons Amtrak will never add 3rd rail to the west side line. Of course I'll never see it in my lifetime.
11. Some one with the know how needs to do a FOIA request to determine how much more Amtrak is paying for 25 / 60 hZ equipment as opposed to just 60 hZ equipment
12. how much more weight of 25 / 60 transformers are in each piece of equipment? What is the additional ROW and track maintenance that is caused by additional weight.?
13. Another FOIA for estimates of converting some 25 hZ CAT to 60 hZ?
14. If HSR really tasks off then 25 / 60 equipment on rolling stock becomes an ongoing unnecessary expense or just leaves the NEC isolated. Caltrain, Brightline west, and CA HSR all will be 60 hZ. The 25 NEC may have been one factor of CA HSR and Amtrak going separate ways for rolling stock.

What would be interesting if Amtrak converted some of the NEC at a time and the removed 25 hZ equipment fill in on remaining 25 locations.
A thought if SSY & NYP were converted to 60 that would allow for the new North River tunnel bores to just be wired for 60. Otherwise, they will have to be wired for both 25 and 60 in anticipation of future conversion to 60.
There is one downside operationally that going to 60 will have. Rotary converters would not be needed. They do have an ability to smooth out the sine waves on the CAT.

BTW PRR did install the CAT as 11.0 kV. However after WW-2 it increased it to 11,5 kV. Then Amtrak converted it to 12.0 kV. Wish I could find out exact dated for both changes. You do realize the stated voltages are nominal with a +/ - 10 % variation.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:26 pm The LIRR is mostly over-running third rail, but some sections like the Montauk and Greenport sections need diesel service and a transfer at Ronkonkoma for Greenport or a dual-mode equipment.

RW - Long Islander here...The Long Island Rail Road operates DIESEL service on these routes -
All mileage listed is from Long Island City - From a LIRR ETT
Central Branch: BETH (B Tower) 28.6 TO Babylon 36.6 (Connects Main Line to Montauk Branch)
Montauk Branch: Babylon 36.6 to Montauk 115.8 - Intermediate trains operate to Patchogue 53.2 and Speonk 70.8
Main Line between Ronkonkoma 48.5 and Greenport 94.3...One weekday round trip operates to Riverhead 73.3
Oyster Bay Branch between Mineola 18.5 and Oyster Bay 32.9 (Third rail extends 1 1/2 miles to just north of
East Williston 19.8 - There is currently no electric MU service using this segment)
Port Jefferson Branch between Huntington 34.7 to Port Jefferson 57.5

ALL LIRR Tracks equipped for MU operation use over-running third rail @750 Volts DC...MACTRAXX

Historically, why is the PRR and NYC under running and LIRR over running 3rd rail?

NYC used under-running third rail because after testing both over-running and under-running third rail they found the under-running design worked better in snowy conditions. The rail itself provided shelter against the snow, plus the running surface (the bottom) couldn't get touched by snow unless the snow got deeper than the rail itself. That was unlikely unless you were in blizzard conditions, since every time a train passed, snow would get pushed back from the third rail. In addition, under-running third rail had a built-in protective cover that couldn't come off accidentally, so it was safer to work around, with less chance of someone accidentally contacting it or stepping on it and getting electrocuted.

The designers of that system (Frank Sprague and William Wilgus) patented it in 1908, thinking that other railroads would then license the (clearly better) design. However, other railroads generally decided that they would rather go with the older, non-patented over-running third rail design so that they wouldn't have to pay licensing fees even though it was more dangerous and less effective in the snow.

PRR used over-running third rail. Since the PRR owned the LIRR, the LIRR also used over-running third rail.

If Mta had the money, would they want to switch it all to underrunning?

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:07 pm If Mta had the money, would they want to switch it all to underrunning?

(ooh I'm quoting the immediately preceding post - BAD JEFE!)

Benefit: you'd be able to have a single-MU fleet that could run anywhere with a single-type shoe.

Cost: what's the cost-benefit? I.e. how costly is it to outfit all EMU's with the M8-type shoe vs. converting LIRR's third rail to under-running?

The Amtrak Airos would be able to through-run to Jamaica, Babylon, or Ronkonkama if they were quipped with over-running shoes. Would batteries on the 42-E be capable of doing that?

I think you could probably extend the existing third rail (of each type) to the full extent of the MNCR and LIRR systems for what it would cost to change to a single type of third rail and convert the existing equipment.

Someone please clarify. Amtrak owns the North river tunnel bores, NYP station and the East River tunnel bores. Now those three locations all have over running 3rd Rail with 3rd rail on tracks 5 and higher. Amtrak empire locos do use the 3rd rail from the west side line when shutting down the diesel prime mover.
Who installed all this 3 rail, who owns, who provides the DC, who maintains the 3rd rail? Who maintains the control of energizing the 3rd rail. Where are the power converters to produce the DC?

I'm going to make an "ass-out-of-me" assumption and would guess the DC in the Empire Connection tunnel is owned by Amtrak but may be contracted to LIRR for maintenance? Also on tracks 1-4.

For the rest of NYP, since LIRR is the only user, I'd say they would be responsible for maintenance, and likely own it.

Wouldn't it be great if LIRR converted to Catenary? It will never happens, but think of the operational efficiencies.

The Infrastructure Asset Line Appendix to Amtrak's 2024-2029 5 year plan lists 37.6 miles of third rail electrification owned by Amtrak, but also seems to suggest they don't own any of the power distribution to it.